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hello and welcome to the skeptics own

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episode number 36 for the 26th of june

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2009 Richard Saunders here with you in

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today's episode we have an interview

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with Theo Clark now Theo Clark and his

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dad Jeff Clark produce a podcast called

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hunting humbug 101 all about logical

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fallacies and we'll get to that

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interview soon and after that we have a

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talk by Kylie Sturgis a talk she gave

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last year belief in weird things recent

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developments and educational directions

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so sit back have a glass of nice cold

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Theo Clark is a former teacher who now

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writes science curriculum in the state

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of Queensland Australia he is co-author

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of humbug skeptics guide to spotting

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fallacies in thinking and produces a

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podcast hunting humbug 101 he still

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tells people he's a teacher rather than

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a bureaucrat you can check him out at ww

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skeptics field guide net and joining me

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now from sunny Brisbane in Queensland

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Australia is Theo Clark hello Theo g'day

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Richard it's great to be with you yeah

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about time too I and your pot I've been

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listening to your podcast for quite a

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long time now the hunting humbug 101 a

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couple of questions now this is based on

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the book the skeptics guide to spotting

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fallacies in thinking what what what

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made you and your dad Jeff decide to

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create such a book yeah well it's kind

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of an ongoing project i guess and dad

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was probably my father jeff was probably

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one who instigated it in some of the

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courses he was teaching at a particular

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University up here in Brisbane woollen

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malulu let's call it that for now and

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and basically you know marking students

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essays and so on he explained to them in

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detail why they were making mistakes and

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reasoning and instead of just being able

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to use a single term he'd have to you

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know outline it and repeat it and he

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just got sick of it happening so he

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initially made a small kind of you know

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worksheet on fallacies and then from

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just our conversations we had when I

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came back from teaching overseas on the

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UK in 2004 we just just started building

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up and said why don't we write a book

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you know because all the other logic

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books you see a very dry and technical

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and they and you know there was very

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good books out there but a lot of them

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are quite expensive too so the lessons

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make any expensive guidebook and we

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framed it around the idea of just you

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know you're hunting for fallacies you're

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looking for fallacies and more of a

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sport I suppose than the necessary the

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whole philosophical background from

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fallacies en right and it's interesting

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i have a very early copy of your book

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here in front of me now the there are

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many logical fallacies as described in

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the book and and your podcast which

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we'll get to in a moment did you and

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your dad come up with the terms for

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these fallacies or they known already

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know I'm example because it we've got

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the the false compromise the burden of

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proof gibberish moving the goalpost

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special pleading cultural origins false

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analogy and so on and goes so these were

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sort of known yeah I mean they're out

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there and there's many different ways of

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classifying and we just went from

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alphabetical order and then decide terms

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we just thought well let's just we use

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either common ones or we went for just

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versions of them that we found appealing

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or more memorable but yes certainly or

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like all those ones you listed yeah

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they're well-known terms are some of the

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other ones we went for such as false

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positioning that's more commonly known

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as straw man so in the ebook edition of

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the book which is on the web we went for

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straw man because we thought well

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actually it's a better description

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anyway it's more memorable so yeah I

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mean we haven't in the book we haven't

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really come up with any too many new

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ones but probably I think the Internet

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has spawned people have come up with new

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ways of speaking rubbish and so the

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Internet has spawned two new one so

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we've coined some more satirical ones

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too like WTF fallacy which is you know

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technically not a fallacy yes just when

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people are making absolutely rubbish she

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just there's a certain perfect we've

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gotta withdraw otherwise you don't go to

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sleep so you can claim wtfm on but

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that's you know that's a bit more

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satirical bit tongue-in-cheek but I

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think yeah I mean these are well-known

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out there and there's probably many

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different ways of classifying many

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different terms and one of the things we

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talk to students about two is don't get

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hung up on the name get hung up on

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explaining why their reasoning is poor

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the name is how do you remember it and

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he classified but really the important

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thing is to actually think about where

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the error in reasoning is so that's

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probably the focus so i suppose in our

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podcast to is to you know these things

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aren't black and white which particular

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fallacy someone is because people

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sum up so just try and reflect on the

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reason or lack of in someone's argument

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and that's what comes through certainly

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the podcast and probably on our website

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and the books you know just meant to be

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a fun way to introduce people so that I

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suppose so yes the podcast is

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fascinating because really every episode

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looks at a different fallacy and

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thinking or logical fallacy so you read

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a little bit from the book you and your

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dad Jeff yep and then you go on with a

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more in-depth explanation as to why this

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is a fallacy and thinking yeah well I

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think the internet you know first of all

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when it started you know really taking

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off with web 2.0 with blogs and psalm

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was a really good way to start off the

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explaining fallacies in more detail and

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using um real examples because that's

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one thing we try and do is use real

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examples whereas again a lot of

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textbooks and that they're made-up

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contrived example so they're not really

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that useful for the real world because

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the real world is more complicated so

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that's where it started and then

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essentially the podcast was you know we

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have these conversations I'm sure you're

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the same you need is you think taking

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the pub and you have these conversations

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with people you think is a great

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conversation if only more people could

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hear it very a testicle of course but

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that's probably where it came from and

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in terms of elucidating or explaining

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something when you're right it takes a

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long time but when you speak it's very

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short now in hindsight editing a podcast

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I know I don't need to tell you okay

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that's actually takes some time but I

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think it's just it's more engaging and

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more interesting so even just the amount

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of feedback we've gotten from people

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just been doing a podcast it's you know

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I haven't done a proper scientific study

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and I've got my own personal biases but

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certainly I've gotten a lot more

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feedback in the short time I've been

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doing a podcast and we're just from the

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website which you've had up for about

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three or four years so I think that

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medium just allows you to really get

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into the nuts and bolts of it quicker

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and with more detail if not as

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necessarily and well thought out because

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I'm sure you agree sometimes when you

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listen back to some of the things you

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say you think what did I say that too

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late well I at least get to edit out my

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bits because I duality and are yeah my

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stack the deck nicely I see I see she

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actually said that if I should have said

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that you're using

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I mean it's very important I think for

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people interested in skepticism to

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listen to your podcast and have access

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to your book now your books available

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online as an e-book yeah as an e-book

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yeah that was again we thought you know

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the Internet has really changed the

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dynamic of how you are get information

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out there and you know the old models of

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trying to make money off stuff don't

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really work the way they used to use

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people want information for free and we

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didn't write the book you know to get

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minted from it off boog on fallacies and

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not really probably making much money so

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once we thought we'll put up the e-book

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version so people can use to get to the

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fallacies and so on it is a little bit

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dead like the introductions gone the

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introduction in the paperbacks are more

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detailed and so on but you know it's

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let's get it out there if people want to

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use it in lectures or at schools and

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things like that they can print off a

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particular fallacy and look at it

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because at the end of the day as you

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said it's so important that we have

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people starting to think critically

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about things and being a bit skeptical i

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think so i think it's it's very good to

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know and and i'm trying to remember if

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you made this point in your podcast you

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probably have felt a greater pork okay

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that we as skeptics and critical

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thinkers should be familiar with these

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logical fallacies in order if nothing

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else in order that we don't commit them

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ourselves absolutely yeah and and not

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that's certainly one major thing and

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that's what we said an introduction to

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the book is that you know one of the

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things about constructing an argument

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now there's those books on how to

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construct name or we week went the other

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way we thought well if you learn how to

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get rid of the bad point of an argument

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kind of by default you're only left with

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the good ones so that's a bit of a

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shortcut to making sure an argument that

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you're constructing is is valid one of

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course you can use it for devious ends

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to done deliberately employ them for

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your own benefit but you know at the end

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of the day even if you're just aware of

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their there are these things called

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fallacies out there because a lot of

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people you talk to them they don't even

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realize there's things you can you can

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make a

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document that is gonna go I have a gut

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feeling that someone's telling them

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rubbish but they don't really understand

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that you can construct an argument based

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on premises and have a conclusion and

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things like that so it's it's I suppose

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it's just like a language another

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language to speak and adds another tool

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to your intellectual toolkit I guess if

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you if you're aware of these fallacies

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and just just the general idea of trying

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to put links together to make an

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argument make sense and since listening

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to your podcast and reading your book it

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is difficult i will have to admit it is

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difficult to keep all these in mind when

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you're talking to somebody and quite

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often someone will make a logical

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fallacy although employ something like

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the browbeating which you explain in

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your book or whatever the case may be

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and quite often it's very hard to catch

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it as it happens because you absolutely

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concentrating on the on the conversation

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or the argument you're trying to think

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of your point of view and suddenly

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they'll sneak in even without knowing it

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some outrageous logical fallacy and yes

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they can go right over your head

276
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sometimes yeah I'm and that's the thing

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is to not get hung up on it on the in

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the actual point in time and also to be

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happy to say something look I've taken

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on what you're saying but I really can't

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respond to at this point I need a bit of

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00:11:19,860 --> 00:11:17,100
time to think about what you're saying

283
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because in the heat of an argument you

284
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know people don't often think to do that

285
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but also yeah i mean really don't get

286
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hung up on the terms so much just just

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try and think about why what did they

288
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say that didn't make much sense can i

289
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dissect it probably the main thing when

290
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you're actually discussing something

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with someone in real time the number one

292
00:11:40,470 --> 00:11:38,410
thing I've noticed especially when I

293
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listen to you know debates between

294
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prominent thinkers let like you know

295
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Richard Dawkins and somebody or what

296
00:11:49,890 --> 00:11:46,840
they really let them go off topic

297
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straight away and so that's probably

298
00:11:52,740 --> 00:11:50,980
that's what you know moving the

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goalposts and that's will be the main

300
00:11:55,410 --> 00:11:54,040
tactic people you so that's really

301
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important it's just say no this was a

302
00:11:58,920 --> 00:11:57,370
point we're addressing you have an

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answer that yet stay on it so you know

304
00:12:03,060 --> 00:12:00,880
good journals journals will do that with

305
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:03,070
politicians you know how try to do if

306
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:04,810
they try to do a politician not although

307
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they'll admit defeat they'll go okay

308
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:07,690
you're not going to answer that but at

309
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least they've said you haven't answered

310
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that whereas the slippery people the one

311
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so you just shift the conversation

312
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:14,390
slowly and you don't

313
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lies that you've actually moved off

314
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:17,960
topic so there's some little tactics but

315
00:12:22,750 --> 00:12:20,210
again when I wrote the book for example

316
00:12:25,810 --> 00:12:22,760
I wasn't as good at it as good at it as

317
00:12:28,090 --> 00:12:25,820
I am now and that's just because by

318
00:12:30,070 --> 00:12:28,100
doing a website and practicing it and

319
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:30,080
looking at it and doing it over time you

320
00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:31,610
just get better you know you hope you

321
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:35,090
get better anyway so yeah I people don't

322
00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:36,530
you know don't stress over just think

323
00:12:40,390 --> 00:12:38,450
it's an ongoing thing you know lifelong

324
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:40,400
learning all that kind of stuff you're

325
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:41,930
the sort of person i wish i had by my

326
00:12:45,130 --> 00:12:43,610
side when I was filming the the

327
00:12:47,140 --> 00:12:45,140
television show the one last year

328
00:12:49,810 --> 00:12:47,150
because I was hearing an awful lot of

329
00:12:52,300 --> 00:12:49,820
interesting arguments so to speak and I

330
00:12:53,860 --> 00:12:52,310
know there was logical fallacies being

331
00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:53,870
thrown left right and center but it is

332
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very difficult to keep up yeah actually

333
00:13:00,310 --> 00:12:58,970
why I you know cuz i watch the one and I

334
00:13:02,260 --> 00:13:00,320
thought I you're a rock and a hard place

335
00:13:04,450 --> 00:13:02,270
because you did the exact right thing

336
00:13:07,450 --> 00:13:04,460
which is what again if you read any

337
00:13:10,060 --> 00:13:07,460
research on debates the point people

338
00:13:12,550 --> 00:13:10,070
make our irrelevant it's how likable you

339
00:13:14,110 --> 00:13:12,560
are yes I on that sense you watch if

340
00:13:16,060 --> 00:13:14,120
what you do you did very well because

341
00:13:17,530 --> 00:13:16,070
people don't they don't care that they

342
00:13:20,140 --> 00:13:17,540
just like the look of you and what you

343
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:20,150
sound like it's sad but that's just

344
00:13:23,710 --> 00:13:21,530
that's one side sad that's just how

345
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:23,720
humans are all right with you easier to

346
00:13:27,550 --> 00:13:25,610
your advantage here good me it's very

347
00:13:30,580 --> 00:13:27,560
sad look well I've got you there there's

348
00:13:34,350 --> 00:13:30,590
one that comes I find comes up quite a

349
00:13:37,570 --> 00:13:34,360
lot and since simply what I mean is

350
00:13:39,220 --> 00:13:37,580
especially recently we've been arguing a

351
00:13:41,470 --> 00:13:39,230
lot with people who believe that you

352
00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:41,480
shouldn't vaccinate babies for example

353
00:13:45,790 --> 00:13:43,310
yeah this is a big big issue at the

354
00:13:48,940 --> 00:13:45,800
moment and quite often they will throw

355
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:48,950
up which is listed in your book here the

356
00:13:52,900 --> 00:13:50,810
earlier version i have is floor number

357
00:13:54,340 --> 00:13:52,910
eight the false dichotomy could you

358
00:13:55,990 --> 00:13:54,350
spend really explaining that one because

359
00:13:58,810 --> 00:13:56,000
i think that's a very important issue

360
00:14:01,960 --> 00:13:58,820
yeah i mean the false dichotomy or false

361
00:14:03,940 --> 00:14:01,970
dilemma is one people use all the time

362
00:14:05,830 --> 00:14:03,950
and basically it's either it's black or

363
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:05,840
white reasoning so either you do this

364
00:14:10,690 --> 00:14:07,370
one thing or you don't do this other

365
00:14:12,490 --> 00:14:10,700
thing and and so they split things up

366
00:14:14,110 --> 00:14:12,500
where well why can't we go in the middle

367
00:14:17,290 --> 00:14:14,120
you know what why isn't then is so your

368
00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:17,300
middle decision to make or is there a

369
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:20,720
third option so and it's very often it's

370
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:22,810
just deliberately done it's a tactic

371
00:14:27,710 --> 00:14:25,610
unconsciously often but a good example i

372
00:14:29,300 --> 00:14:27,720
can think of

373
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:29,310
because we did a podcast in this one so

374
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:30,810
these are the examples of top of my head

375
00:14:34,970 --> 00:14:32,930
but you know the Large Hadron Collider

376
00:14:37,670 --> 00:14:34,980
though all these people that came out on

377
00:14:39,019 --> 00:14:37,680
a spending 20 billion dollars on this

378
00:14:40,670 --> 00:14:39,029
thing you know it's 20 billion dollars

379
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:40,680
over ten years why aren't they spending

380
00:14:46,129 --> 00:14:43,170
it on x y&z it's like why can't they

381
00:14:48,230 --> 00:14:46,139
spend on this end on XY and Z so unless

382
00:14:50,090 --> 00:14:48,240
you tell me why we can't do one or the

383
00:14:52,090 --> 00:14:50,100
other why we can't do them both then

384
00:14:56,030 --> 00:14:52,100
you're creating a false dichotomy and

385
00:14:58,069 --> 00:14:56,040
the anti-vaxxers their classic one they

386
00:15:01,309 --> 00:14:58,079
kind of do is something like it's a

387
00:15:03,619 --> 00:15:01,319
choice between either immunizing your

388
00:15:06,550 --> 00:15:03,629
yours child which will then give them

389
00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:06,560
autism which is you know rubbish yeah or

390
00:15:11,150 --> 00:15:08,910
doing it some alternative way like

391
00:15:12,889 --> 00:15:11,160
exposing your children to measles when

392
00:15:15,050 --> 00:15:12,899
there's a measles outbreak around and

393
00:15:18,199 --> 00:15:15,060
it's like well first of all you're

394
00:15:20,269 --> 00:15:18,209
creating this false dilemma where you're

395
00:15:22,009 --> 00:15:20,279
actually basing it on a factoid that's

396
00:15:23,749 --> 00:15:22,019
incorrect you're basically on something

397
00:15:27,499 --> 00:15:23,759
that's been demonstrated in the

398
00:15:28,670 --> 00:15:27,509
literature over time to be incorrect the

399
00:15:30,829 --> 00:15:28,680
other one they're really good at doing

400
00:15:32,900 --> 00:15:30,839
and this is one we've already done the

401
00:15:34,189 --> 00:15:32,910
podcast and this one but I'm doing it

402
00:15:37,759 --> 00:15:34,199
again on talk about this one which is

403
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:37,769
they stack the deck so by stacking the

404
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:39,930
deck is they don't they should they give

405
00:15:43,610 --> 00:15:42,000
put the cards in an order that means

406
00:15:46,220 --> 00:15:43,620
that their argument looks strong and by

407
00:15:48,290 --> 00:15:46,230
what they actually do is all they ever

408
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:48,300
talk about with autism is the supposed

409
00:15:53,269 --> 00:15:50,370
link with vaccines they never mention

410
00:15:55,579 --> 00:15:53,279
any of the actual research being on done

411
00:15:57,170 --> 00:15:55,589
on autism and you know when this started

412
00:15:58,490 --> 00:15:57,180
happening I thought or go and have a

413
00:16:00,679 --> 00:15:58,500
look at some of the actual things about

414
00:16:02,569 --> 00:16:00,689
autism what's going on and there's so

415
00:16:04,429 --> 00:16:02,579
much evidence out there about the actual

416
00:16:06,439 --> 00:16:04,439
cause about the genetic causes of it

417
00:16:07,809 --> 00:16:06,449
things like that about some studies that

418
00:16:10,780 --> 00:16:07,819
now done where they can even identify

419
00:16:13,309 --> 00:16:10,790
with about eighty percent accuracy of

420
00:16:16,129 --> 00:16:13,319
children's behavior at the age of six

421
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:16,139
months by their lack of eye contact and

422
00:16:19,069 --> 00:16:17,490
whether they've got autism or not now

423
00:16:22,009 --> 00:16:19,079
they're not getting the MMR vaccine into

424
00:16:23,869 --> 00:16:22,019
what two years old so you know there's

425
00:16:25,249 --> 00:16:23,879
so much evidence but they never talk

426
00:16:27,829 --> 00:16:25,259
about that so if you go to some of the

427
00:16:30,259 --> 00:16:27,839
big autism vaccine blogs and you search

428
00:16:32,090 --> 00:16:30,269
for those things they're never there so

429
00:16:33,889 --> 00:16:32,100
that's a classic one just ignore any

430
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:33,899
counter evidence and just focus on your

431
00:16:39,470 --> 00:16:37,170
particular um you know thing you're into

432
00:16:40,980 --> 00:16:39,480
so in this case hating softer says look

433
00:16:42,870 --> 00:16:40,990
as the case may be

434
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:42,880
it's it's interesting to another thing

435
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:45,010
that comes up and I wonder if this is

436
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:47,050
sort of associated with it and again

437
00:16:52,019 --> 00:16:48,730
it's showing my ignorance here trying to

438
00:16:54,810 --> 00:16:52,029
to keep all these fallacies in mind is

439
00:16:57,060 --> 00:16:54,820
where they'll bring up the concept of

440
00:17:00,150 --> 00:16:57,070
balance let's let's take the

441
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:00,160
anti-vaxxers again so there's this the

442
00:17:03,780 --> 00:17:01,570
the line that we should vaccinate our

443
00:17:06,750 --> 00:17:03,790
kids to prevent these these diseases etc

444
00:17:08,699 --> 00:17:06,760
and I'll say oh yes but we want balance

445
00:17:11,370 --> 00:17:08,709
we want the other side of the story

446
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:11,380
shown now as you and I both know there

447
00:17:15,809 --> 00:17:14,530
is no other side way that is insane we

448
00:17:16,829 --> 00:17:15,819
haven't done the podcast on that one but

449
00:17:19,710 --> 00:17:16,839
I probably is that'll be false

450
00:17:21,750 --> 00:17:19,720
compromise so false my compromise where

451
00:17:23,429 --> 00:17:21,760
you're making us compromise between so a

452
00:17:25,290 --> 00:17:23,439
journalist might make a false compromise

453
00:17:29,310 --> 00:17:25,300
and say oh let's do both sides and treat

454
00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:29,320
them equally now balance means about you

455
00:17:33,570 --> 00:17:32,110
are fair in your investigation of what's

456
00:17:35,370 --> 00:17:33,580
going on and you're balancing your

457
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:35,380
investigation that doesn't mean you

458
00:17:39,140 --> 00:17:37,450
present to unequal side that's going to

459
00:17:42,150 --> 00:17:39,150
be you know if you have any debate about

460
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:42,160
whether the earth is you know how all

461
00:17:45,270 --> 00:17:43,450
the earth is you're not going to bother

462
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:45,280
inviting a young earth creationist there

463
00:17:49,890 --> 00:17:47,770
because we know the evidence says

464
00:17:51,330 --> 00:17:49,900
they're completely and utterly wrong so

465
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:51,340
why would you do the same the fact the

466
00:17:54,299 --> 00:17:52,690
anti-vaxxers the any reason is good as

467
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:54,309
interesting controversy that's the only

468
00:17:59,190 --> 00:17:56,650
reason journalists do it yeah there's no

469
00:18:00,810 --> 00:17:59,200
I mean and and the other one they do of

470
00:18:03,510 --> 00:18:00,820
course is bad faith and being completely

471
00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:03,520
disingenuous so on that channel 7 thing

472
00:18:07,169 --> 00:18:04,809
that we had recently that you guys went

473
00:18:10,740 --> 00:18:07,179
to you know the doctor that got up there

474
00:18:12,870 --> 00:18:10,750
and she said I'm not anti vaccines but

475
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:12,880
I'm pro-choice but if I hang on have you

476
00:18:17,910 --> 00:18:14,890
ever given a vaccine so if someone came

477
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:17,920
into your your practice and said I want

478
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:21,130
a vaccination would she do it no so

479
00:18:25,530 --> 00:18:23,170
completely disingenuous in the way she

480
00:18:27,210 --> 00:18:25,540
acts as well so if you're pro-choice you

481
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:27,220
would you would allow you would you

482
00:18:31,380 --> 00:18:28,570
would you would give some the vaccine if

483
00:18:33,780 --> 00:18:31,390
they wanted it so you know it they're

484
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:33,790
very disingenuous and the way they argue

485
00:18:39,090 --> 00:18:36,610
as well so it's good it's good to know

486
00:18:40,799 --> 00:18:39,100
and it's again for any skeptic out there

487
00:18:43,140 --> 00:18:40,809
who's especially getting into this field

488
00:18:45,810 --> 00:18:43,150
or the season skeptic I can silly

489
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:45,820
sincerely recommend you value yourself

490
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:48,250
of this great information now the

491
00:18:52,350 --> 00:18:50,410
podcast how can people hear your podcast

492
00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:52,360
well the best way to see all the stuff

493
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:53,980
is just together well if you're good

494
00:18:56,470 --> 00:18:54,650
you're mine

495
00:18:59,200 --> 00:18:56,480
Theo Clark I'm actually the number one

496
00:19:00,670 --> 00:18:59,210
goofy o'clock on Google possibly because

497
00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:00,680
of my first name gives me an unfair

498
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:04,370
advantage but yeah the ww skeptics field

499
00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:06,890
guide or one word net and that skeptics

500
00:19:10,630 --> 00:19:08,510
with a capital K because I like the look

501
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:10,640
of it better to ya even though in

502
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:12,050
Australia technically women's built the

503
00:19:16,990 --> 00:19:15,290
sea yeah and that's where you can go to

504
00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:17,000
have a look and then it's pretty obvious

505
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:19,370
from there there's links everywhere the

506
00:19:24,340 --> 00:19:21,410
ebooks down the bottom of the page as a

507
00:19:26,020 --> 00:19:24,350
PDF it's on scribed com so you can get

508
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:26,030
it from there as well and download it

509
00:19:31,090 --> 00:19:27,530
and print it off and bind it or whatever

510
00:19:32,710 --> 00:19:31,100
you want to do we're also selling the

511
00:19:33,940 --> 00:19:32,720
actual paperback for twenty dollars

512
00:19:36,310 --> 00:19:33,950
Australian and there's a link there on

513
00:19:38,230 --> 00:19:36,320
the website for that as well even posted

514
00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:38,240
overseas that will cost you a little bit

515
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:39,710
more of the postage but Australian

516
00:19:43,990 --> 00:19:41,570
dollars so weak anyway fee yeah the

517
00:19:46,150 --> 00:19:44,000
American listeners out there no problems

518
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:46,160
for you guys to buy it yeah so that

519
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:47,690
that's the other option to as well and

520
00:19:53,290 --> 00:19:49,810
yeah all it's all there on the website

521
00:19:55,420 --> 00:19:53,300
and there before I go Richard in before

522
00:19:58,390 --> 00:19:55,430
we end this I have a little plug I want

523
00:20:00,910 --> 00:19:58,400
to do to all Australians out there in my

524
00:20:03,070 --> 00:20:00,920
job which is as a science curriculum or

525
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:03,080
a writer in queensland and i get i get

526
00:20:06,430 --> 00:20:04,730
to enjoy looking at the science

527
00:20:08,770 --> 00:20:06,440
curriculum and so on which is obviously

528
00:20:11,380 --> 00:20:08,780
the skeptics were pretty concerned about

529
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:11,390
and the moment australia is writing a

530
00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:14,690
national curriculum and there at the

531
00:20:18,070 --> 00:20:16,310
moment they're writing it and they'll

532
00:20:21,220 --> 00:20:18,080
the draft versions of the curriculum

533
00:20:23,380 --> 00:20:21,230
will be out at the beginning of 2010 so

534
00:20:26,770 --> 00:20:23,390
i encourage all skeptics australian

535
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:26,780
skeptics to get on the website for the

536
00:20:31,510 --> 00:20:28,730
Australian Curriculum and reporting

537
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:31,520
authority and when those drafts come out

538
00:20:34,540 --> 00:20:33,050
make sure you read them and give them

539
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:34,550
some feedback some positive feedback

540
00:20:37,990 --> 00:20:36,050
about the good things they're doing in

541
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:38,000
questions on the dodgy things because

542
00:20:42,490 --> 00:20:40,490
they specifically say in the aims of the

543
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:42,500
australian science curriculum the words

544
00:20:46,990 --> 00:20:45,410
skepticism is there and then they

545
00:20:49,060 --> 00:20:47,000
actually say students should be able to

546
00:20:50,380 --> 00:20:49,070
engage in communication of in about

547
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:50,390
science and value evidence and

548
00:20:55,660 --> 00:20:52,850
skepticism and question scientific

549
00:20:57,130 --> 00:20:55,670
claims made by others so i think there's

550
00:20:59,530 --> 00:20:57,140
an opportunity there for skeptics to

551
00:21:01,510 --> 00:20:59,540
really try and push that word to be in

552
00:21:03,210 --> 00:21:01,520
the curriculum and to really say it's a

553
00:21:05,620 --> 00:21:03,220
good positive word out there because

554
00:21:07,810 --> 00:21:05,630
again as we know that word is often

555
00:21:08,460 --> 00:21:07,820
confused with cynicism and if we can

556
00:21:10,710 --> 00:21:08,470
actually get

557
00:21:12,930 --> 00:21:10,720
language into our science curriculum and

558
00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:12,940
have that being a term that's used and

559
00:21:17,039 --> 00:21:14,950
talked about in science classrooms

560
00:21:18,149 --> 00:21:17,049
because support unsurprisingly I suppose

561
00:21:20,669 --> 00:21:18,159
a lot of science teachers aren't

562
00:21:22,470 --> 00:21:20,679
particularly skeptical going to be

563
00:21:23,990 --> 00:21:22,480
fantastic if we get that an Australian

564
00:21:25,919 --> 00:21:24,000
Curriculum so I really encourage

565
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:25,929
everyone to go to the Australian

566
00:21:34,740 --> 00:21:31,090
Curriculum website that's WWE caiied you

567
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:34,750
a you so takara and when their drafts

568
00:21:37,169 --> 00:21:36,010
come out get on there have a look at

569
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:37,179
them and give them some positive

570
00:21:41,220 --> 00:21:38,890
feedback about that word skepticism

571
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:41,230
great idea absolutely i encourage

572
00:21:44,820 --> 00:21:42,850
everybody to do that and i also

573
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:44,830
encourage everybody to grab a copy of

574
00:21:50,940 --> 00:21:48,970
humbug the skeptics guide to spotting

575
00:21:52,980 --> 00:21:50,950
fallacies in thinking listen to the

576
00:21:55,380 --> 00:21:52,990
podcast because each podcast breaks down

577
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:55,390
a different fallacy and how many of you

578
00:22:00,690 --> 00:21:57,010
got up there by now must be a big number

579
00:22:01,890 --> 00:22:00,700
we're on I saw that you were working on

580
00:22:03,930 --> 00:22:01,900
the zone and I've been working on my

581
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:03,940
podcast and be number 29 going out we're

582
00:22:08,669 --> 00:22:07,090
getting a bit slack at home trying to

583
00:22:12,060 --> 00:22:08,679
get them up but we're doing about once

584
00:22:15,149 --> 00:22:12,070
every fortnight and I'm trying to

585
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:15,159
hopefully get them all done before the

586
00:22:19,250 --> 00:22:16,690
end of August because that's when I'm

587
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:19,260
expecting another child and so I don't

588
00:22:24,630 --> 00:22:21,850
be worried about my output after that

589
00:22:25,860 --> 00:22:24,640
point but yeah so we're doing about once

590
00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:25,870
every fortnight at the moment and we're

591
00:22:32,100 --> 00:22:29,110
up to 29 so I imagine we'll get up in

592
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:32,110
the high 30s at least before we run out

593
00:22:35,250 --> 00:22:33,850
of fallacies to talk about and then we

594
00:22:37,110 --> 00:22:35,260
might just pick out some random ones

595
00:22:38,610 --> 00:22:37,120
here and there to look at that's

596
00:22:40,710 --> 00:22:38,620
excellent of course it's not only a

597
00:22:42,180 --> 00:22:40,720
discussion about the fallacies you do

598
00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:42,190
other things in your podcast to I

599
00:22:46,529 --> 00:22:44,320
remember there was a memorable memorable

600
00:22:48,390 --> 00:22:46,539
time where you were talking to a psychic

601
00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:48,400
oh you want to see yeah yeah yep yep

602
00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:50,110
yeah and we've got a we've got another

603
00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:51,760
one up in a similar vein it's not

604
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:54,159
specifically about a fallacy we're going

605
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:55,450
to sit down with a couple of skeptical

606
00:22:58,770 --> 00:22:56,770
people I know we're going to come up

607
00:23:01,590 --> 00:22:58,780
with a list of all the things we've

608
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:01,600
changed our mind about because one of

609
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:02,890
the things you get as a skeptic of

610
00:23:05,610 --> 00:23:04,690
course is all your clothes minded you

611
00:23:08,190 --> 00:23:05,620
wouldn't change your mind about anything

612
00:23:09,570 --> 00:23:08,200
and it's really annoying because it's

613
00:23:11,669 --> 00:23:09,580
one of those ones where when I walk away

614
00:23:13,140 --> 00:23:11,679
as you're saying before you haven't

615
00:23:15,029 --> 00:23:13,150
thought about these things and you don't

616
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:15,039
have an answer on the spot and I walk

617
00:23:18,659 --> 00:23:16,570
waiting SI haven't changed my mind about

618
00:23:21,740 --> 00:23:18,669
this this and that but it's too late so

619
00:23:24,380 --> 00:23:21,750
that if I come up with a list good to go

620
00:23:25,550 --> 00:23:24,390
sorry I'm gonna do when we're gonna sit

621
00:23:27,290 --> 00:23:25,560
down and work out some things I changed

622
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:27,300
my was wrong once I remember having back

623
00:23:32,450 --> 00:23:30,810
in nineteen eighty yes nice that's a

624
00:23:33,980 --> 00:23:32,460
planner I'll encourage all skeptics to

625
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:33,990
come up with at least say if you're good

626
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:35,370
to go when some of the keys you've been

627
00:23:39,710 --> 00:23:37,290
closed-minded an excellent idea now I

628
00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:39,720
hope I will see you in Brisbane in

629
00:23:43,810 --> 00:23:42,510
November for the ECHL invention yep

630
00:23:46,970 --> 00:23:43,820
absolutely i'm looking forward to that

631
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:46,980
excellent well look thanks Theo keep up

632
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:49,170
your excellent podcast I do enjoy

633
00:23:53,300 --> 00:23:51,090
listening to it I try to remember as

634
00:23:54,860 --> 00:23:53,310
much as possible and my regards to your

635
00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:54,870
dad Jeff who helps you out on the

636
00:23:59,600 --> 00:23:57,930
podcast of course and I just can I just

637
00:24:01,340 --> 00:23:59,610
reaffirm everything you say about me

638
00:24:03,950 --> 00:24:01,350
right back at you Richard fantastic

639
00:24:06,290 --> 00:24:03,960
thank you and thank you for being our

640
00:24:14,430 --> 00:24:06,300
guest today on the skeptic zone thank

641
00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:18,270
help re-establish the herd immunity of

642
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:22,310
Nevada tam seven is fast approaching and

643
00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:24,410
those of you who have already signed up

644
00:24:27,700 --> 00:24:26,000
may have noticed something a bit

645
00:24:30,580 --> 00:24:27,710
different about the bottom of the

646
00:24:33,190 --> 00:24:30,590
registration page this year the James

647
00:24:35,230 --> 00:24:33,200
Randi Educational Foundation is working

648
00:24:39,130 --> 00:24:35,240
with the Southern Nevada Health District

649
00:24:42,430 --> 00:24:39,140
as in HD to provide vaccinations for

650
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:42,440
children in Nevada to help support this

651
00:24:54,340 --> 00:24:51,290
worthy cause please visit WWE so that's

652
00:24:56,530 --> 00:24:54,350
why you can't eat her okay I was just

653
00:24:57,850 --> 00:24:56,540
talking to the students here now look

654
00:25:00,670 --> 00:24:57,860
I'm supposed to tell you about something

655
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:00,680
the cosmic tea party a new science

656
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:04,250
podcast podcast the hose it at any rate

657
00:25:08,650 --> 00:25:05,890
it's about science and mathematics

658
00:25:11,710 --> 00:25:08,660
sounds rather dull oh hang on I open it

659
00:25:14,530 --> 00:25:11,720
and says here not done so there you have

660
00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:14,540
it the cosmic tea party podcast ww

661
00:25:26,850 --> 00:25:17,510
cosmic Tea Party or or search for them

662
00:25:32,799 --> 00:25:29,770
all right now this next segment is

663
00:25:35,669 --> 00:25:32,809
presented by our reporter Kylie Sturgis

664
00:25:39,310 --> 00:25:35,679
when she spoke last year at the perth

665
00:25:42,490 --> 00:25:39,320
atheists earth atheists try saying that

666
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:42,500
three times quickly Perth is very much

667
00:25:46,750 --> 00:25:44,570
on our mind at the moment because the

668
00:25:50,020 --> 00:25:46,760
University of Western Australia is

669
00:25:52,419 --> 00:25:50,030
hosting a secular week in August and dr.

670
00:25:56,350 --> 00:25:52,429
Richie dr. Rachel Dunlop and myself are

671
00:26:00,520 --> 00:25:56,360
planning on doing a talk at UWA atheists

672
00:26:02,740 --> 00:26:00,530
and agnostics society we are looking for

673
00:26:06,850 --> 00:26:02,750
help to get over to Perth and thanks to

674
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:06,860
UWA atheists and agnostics society Perth

675
00:26:13,150 --> 00:26:10,610
atheists and wa humanist society we're

676
00:26:15,159 --> 00:26:13,160
brainstorming ideas if you'd like to

677
00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:15,169
help donate for flights to Perth or

678
00:26:20,740 --> 00:26:17,600
support the skeptic zone the paypal

679
00:26:24,370 --> 00:26:20,750
button is on our site at wwc a petting

680
00:26:26,770 --> 00:26:24,380
zoo TV in the meantime thanks very much

681
00:26:29,409 --> 00:26:26,780
to the Perth atheists for allowing us to

682
00:26:33,310 --> 00:26:29,419
use the audio from kylie's talk last

683
00:26:36,700 --> 00:26:33,320
year all about belief in weird things

684
00:26:44,570 --> 00:26:36,710
recent developments and educational

685
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:48,139
my name is Kylie Sturgis but most of the

686
00:26:52,730 --> 00:26:50,970
time i'm known as Sturge a studio where

687
00:26:55,250 --> 00:26:52,740
you do it over there stage Oh have an

688
00:26:56,659 --> 00:26:55,260
ending my homework studio if the

689
00:26:59,029 --> 00:26:56,669
students have been particularly not

690
00:27:00,950 --> 00:26:59,039
annoying they call me Stewart which in

691
00:27:04,039 --> 00:27:00,960
my mind sort of comes across as of a

692
00:27:07,070 --> 00:27:04,049
disease a cow would get like um it died

693
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:07,080
a brucellosis and stood so rotting away

694
00:27:10,610 --> 00:27:09,090
there so stir Joe's fine I've responded

695
00:27:13,159 --> 00:27:10,620
to that for about the last 10 years as a

696
00:27:14,930 --> 00:27:13,169
teacher the presentation i have is

697
00:27:16,340 --> 00:27:14,940
primarily about definitions for the

698
00:27:18,379 --> 00:27:16,350
first part and I've got a bit of reading

699
00:27:20,389 --> 00:27:18,389
to do but it does hold some ideas about

700
00:27:22,730 --> 00:27:20,399
possible strategies for atheists within

701
00:27:24,259 --> 00:27:22,740
their community although being skeptical

702
00:27:27,379 --> 00:27:24,269
is not something I think is necessary

703
00:27:29,389 --> 00:27:27,389
for an atheist to be I do think there is

704
00:27:31,549 --> 00:27:29,399
some common ground regarding what I have

705
00:27:32,779 --> 00:27:31,559
personally experienced in education that

706
00:27:35,149 --> 00:27:32,789
perhaps atheists can voice their

707
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:35,159
opinions upon finally I would like to

708
00:27:39,649 --> 00:27:36,690
encourage those who are teachers other

709
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:39,659
any teachers you know cool even

710
00:27:43,580 --> 00:27:41,130
interested in education in one way or

711
00:27:45,980 --> 00:27:43,590
another about the future of our young in

712
00:27:47,690 --> 00:27:45,990
our community if you know teachers have

713
00:27:49,100 --> 00:27:47,700
a stake hold in the school like it might

714
00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:49,110
live near a school have the opportunity

715
00:27:53,659 --> 00:27:52,110
to view a school it's useful to have an

716
00:27:54,919 --> 00:27:53,669
interest in education today maybe have a

717
00:27:56,990 --> 00:27:54,929
say in what's going to happen next

718
00:28:00,340 --> 00:27:57,000
generation one of the first things that

719
00:28:03,310 --> 00:28:00,350
I usually do is say what is skepticism

720
00:28:06,799 --> 00:28:03,320
and skepticism is of course

721
00:28:09,470 --> 00:28:06,809
mean-spirited naysayers debunkers people

722
00:28:11,509 --> 00:28:09,480
who usually stay most of the time in the

723
00:28:12,409 --> 00:28:11,519
kitchen at parties or worse they're

724
00:28:14,629 --> 00:28:12,419
behind the bar because they're the only

725
00:28:16,039 --> 00:28:14,639
sober ones and they make sure that the

726
00:28:17,389 --> 00:28:16,049
police come and get you when things get

727
00:28:19,129 --> 00:28:17,399
too rowdy just throw in the kitchen a

728
00:28:21,620 --> 00:28:19,139
party there you go you're you're

729
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:21,630
skeptical person now this obviously

730
00:28:25,850 --> 00:28:24,090
isn't true but it is generally the sort

731
00:28:28,669 --> 00:28:25,860
of reputation that's people who are

732
00:28:30,259 --> 00:28:28,679
skeptically minded get I would point out

733
00:28:33,049 --> 00:28:30,269
that I don't normally go around calling

734
00:28:34,460 --> 00:28:33,059
myself a skeptic dr. Michael Sherman

735
00:28:36,289 --> 00:28:34,470
who's going to be chewing here soon who

736
00:28:37,669 --> 00:28:36,299
has a magazine called skeptic he doesn't

737
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:37,679
often call himself a skeptic either

738
00:28:44,269 --> 00:28:40,610
because skepticism is about a process

739
00:28:46,580 --> 00:28:44,279
it's a label which often has negative

740
00:28:47,810 --> 00:28:46,590
connotations as I demonstrated and most

741
00:28:50,389 --> 00:28:47,820
of the time I just call myself an

742
00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:50,399
educator I'm female I'm a research

743
00:28:54,740 --> 00:28:52,320
assistant I'm a student of anomalistic

744
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:54,750
psychology which I'll go into in a bit

745
00:28:58,580 --> 00:28:56,250
more detail later

746
00:29:00,950 --> 00:28:58,590
also study educational measurement of

747
00:29:03,230 --> 00:29:00,960
paranormal beliefs my experience and

748
00:29:05,660 --> 00:29:03,240
background 10 years as a teacher I have

749
00:29:07,250 --> 00:29:05,670
a Bachelor of Arts in English literature

750
00:29:09,740 --> 00:29:07,260
and philosophy I've deployment of

751
00:29:11,180 --> 00:29:09,750
education my first MF was in special

752
00:29:13,460 --> 00:29:11,190
learning needs education because of

753
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:13,470
gifted and talented kids and my second

754
00:29:18,830 --> 00:29:16,290
Emmett is probably more tending towards

755
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:18,840
educational psych since skepticism is

756
00:29:21,950 --> 00:29:20,610
something that's done it always seems a

757
00:29:24,260 --> 00:29:21,960
little bit weird to call myself a

758
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:24,270
skeptic in one radio interview for

759
00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:26,490
example the radio interview just off the

760
00:29:29,270 --> 00:29:27,840
top of that his head said so what are

761
00:29:31,550 --> 00:29:29,280
you a critical thinker a skeptic and I

762
00:29:33,230 --> 00:29:31,560
said critical thinker if he gave me or

763
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:33,240
more options I probably would have

764
00:29:36,170 --> 00:29:35,010
chosen more options but skeptic just

765
00:29:38,630 --> 00:29:36,180
didn't seem to come to mind which is

766
00:29:40,940 --> 00:29:38,640
rather odd scepticism derives from the

767
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:40,950
Greek its original meaning was inquiry

768
00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:42,690
and doubt which is a pretty good

769
00:29:48,050 --> 00:29:44,960
approximation of a definition it means

770
00:29:49,420 --> 00:29:48,060
engendering inquiry and down later

771
00:29:52,310 --> 00:29:49,430
philosophers used the word to mean

772
00:29:54,110 --> 00:29:52,320
philosophical doubt the notion of all

773
00:29:56,330 --> 00:29:54,120
pretense to knowledge is mere hubris

774
00:29:58,370 --> 00:29:56,340
attempting to ascertain that there is

775
00:29:59,480 --> 00:29:58,380
true reality in the world is incredibly

776
00:30:01,550 --> 00:29:59,490
arrogant in you can never know the

777
00:30:03,050 --> 00:30:01,560
reality of anything in other words we

778
00:30:06,230 --> 00:30:03,060
know nothing and can know nothing

779
00:30:09,260 --> 00:30:06,240
apparently piro one of the great fathers

780
00:30:11,810 --> 00:30:09,270
of skepticism was very fond of walking

781
00:30:12,950 --> 00:30:11,820
off cliffs because he just denied that

782
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:12,960
it was there and all his followers of

783
00:30:17,140 --> 00:30:14,250
trying to grab me but make sure you do

784
00:30:19,370 --> 00:30:17,150
it a lot in contemporary vernacular

785
00:30:21,380 --> 00:30:19,380
someone who is skeptical generally means

786
00:30:23,660 --> 00:30:21,390
someone who questions conventional

787
00:30:26,330 --> 00:30:23,670
wisdom someone who bitterly or

788
00:30:28,580 --> 00:30:26,340
excessively doubts it's often used as a

789
00:30:29,990 --> 00:30:28,590
pejorative means close-minded and it's

790
00:30:32,420 --> 00:30:30,000
the baggage that we just have to deal

791
00:30:34,310 --> 00:30:32,430
with essentially some more modern

792
00:30:36,290 --> 00:30:34,320
skeptical minded people like Richard

793
00:30:37,730 --> 00:30:36,300
Wiseman is trying they're trying to

794
00:30:40,370 --> 00:30:37,740
reinvent the word they come up with

795
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:40,380
books like quirkology which look at a

796
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:42,330
wide variety of quirky things in

797
00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:44,370
psychology and try to step away from the

798
00:30:49,550 --> 00:30:47,310
notion of skeptical together so what

799
00:30:51,170 --> 00:30:49,560
does skepticism involve skepticism

800
00:30:52,940 --> 00:30:51,180
involves favoring conclusions that are

801
00:30:55,010 --> 00:30:52,950
valid and consistently reliable rather

802
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:55,020
than convenience sake you can probably

803
00:30:59,420 --> 00:30:57,330
all read it there that definition comes

804
00:31:01,170 --> 00:30:59,430
from dr. Steve novella who has a podcast

805
00:31:04,260 --> 00:31:01,180
and

806
00:31:06,750 --> 00:31:04,270
he also contributes quite regularly to a

807
00:31:09,180 --> 00:31:06,760
variety of magazines he contributes to

808
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:09,190
his own blog called neurologica and is a

809
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:11,170
member of quack watch he's primarily

810
00:31:15,540 --> 00:31:13,930
interested in investigating medical

811
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:15,550
claims due to his background at Yale

812
00:31:20,010 --> 00:31:18,490
University scientific skepticism is an

813
00:31:21,900 --> 00:31:20,020
approach to knowledge and is tied

814
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:21,910
strongly to scientific knowledge it

815
00:31:26,310 --> 00:31:23,650
involves following a methodology based

816
00:31:28,590 --> 00:31:26,320
on scientific inquiry it's not a set of

817
00:31:30,630 --> 00:31:28,600
conclusions or there is an ultimate

818
00:31:32,340 --> 00:31:30,640
truth skepticism is about what do we

819
00:31:34,260 --> 00:31:32,350
know now and there's always the

820
00:31:35,940 --> 00:31:34,270
potential that things could change in

821
00:31:38,130 --> 00:31:35,950
the future now that's an important

822
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:38,140
distinction to be made one of the most

823
00:31:43,260 --> 00:31:40,170
detailed lectures that I've attended

824
00:31:46,260 --> 00:31:43,270
online upon this subject was in fact by

825
00:31:48,510 --> 00:31:46,270
dr. Steven novella to paraphrase him you

826
00:31:50,820 --> 00:31:48,520
don't assume that there is or isn't an

827
00:31:53,900 --> 00:31:50,830
existence of the supernatural but what

828
00:31:57,030 --> 00:31:53,910
can be observed so far is what you go by

829
00:31:58,860 --> 00:31:57,040
so basically being skeptical means you

830
00:32:01,200 --> 00:31:58,870
investigate nature as if it's

831
00:32:02,550 --> 00:32:01,210
naturalistic or materialistic and you

832
00:32:04,650 --> 00:32:02,560
follow a methodology within that

833
00:32:06,420 --> 00:32:04,660
paradigm in this way we can see how

834
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:06,430
scepticism contributes to understanding

835
00:32:11,130 --> 00:32:08,770
a process behind what do we know about

836
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:11,140
what we know in psychology there's a

837
00:32:16,050 --> 00:32:12,610
variety of contributions from

838
00:32:17,790 --> 00:32:16,060
anomalistic psychology and even power

839
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:17,800
psychology you can look at cognitive

840
00:32:22,140 --> 00:32:20,290
biases for example there's dozens of

841
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:22,150
these the vonahrish will staff effect

842
00:32:26,010 --> 00:32:24,370
for example things that stick out like a

843
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:26,020
sore thumb you're more likely to notice

844
00:32:30,420 --> 00:32:27,850
them we started talking about one

845
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:30,430
earlier as well about how you can have

846
00:32:34,170 --> 00:32:31,930
visual illusions but you're going to

847
00:32:35,730 --> 00:32:34,180
serve all illusions illusions of the ear

848
00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:35,740
where you start thinking that what is

849
00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:38,080
being said in garbled tones is something

850
00:32:41,850 --> 00:32:40,510
really being said in English or a

851
00:32:43,830 --> 00:32:41,860
variety of other languages depending

852
00:32:46,110 --> 00:32:43,840
where you're from there's the gamblers

853
00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:46,120
fallacy you flipped a coin you've got

854
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:47,710
five heads the next one is bound to be a

855
00:32:53,850 --> 00:32:51,210
tail and this is what keeps people

856
00:32:55,590 --> 00:32:53,860
making a lot of money the casinos the

857
00:32:57,300 --> 00:32:55,600
hope that the next one will be the

858
00:32:58,560 --> 00:32:57,310
winner there's personality factors

859
00:32:59,970 --> 00:32:58,570
involved in whether or not people

860
00:33:01,980 --> 00:32:59,980
believe in weird things there's

861
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:01,990
developmental issues magical thinking

862
00:33:06,510 --> 00:33:03,850
how many of you used to believe that

863
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:06,520
Teddy had feelings or better yet that

864
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:08,770
kicking the door frame when it got in

865
00:33:13,530 --> 00:33:11,410
your way would punish the door that's a

866
00:33:14,749 --> 00:33:13,540
good example what prj would call magical

867
00:33:17,089 --> 00:33:14,759
thinking believing that things

868
00:33:18,829 --> 00:33:17,099
feelings and it even extends into modern

869
00:33:21,369 --> 00:33:18,839
day times there is a variation on it

870
00:33:23,989 --> 00:33:21,379
which was studied by a group of Helsinki

871
00:33:27,439 --> 00:33:23,999
psychologists where they offered people

872
00:33:29,539 --> 00:33:27,449
a jumper here would you wear this oh yes

873
00:33:31,930 --> 00:33:29,549
I'd wear that it used to be owned by

874
00:33:34,310 --> 00:33:31,940
mass murderer would you wear it no way

875
00:33:37,759 --> 00:33:34,320
it's not a jumper I'm not touching that

876
00:33:39,619 --> 00:33:37,769
it was owned by mass murder no Hitler's

877
00:33:41,329 --> 00:33:39,629
moustache brush was another one which

878
00:33:45,079 --> 00:33:41,339
came up would you touch it was mustered

879
00:33:46,789 --> 00:33:45,089
no I never would the nature of memory is

880
00:33:48,379 --> 00:33:46,799
another one that comes up again and

881
00:33:50,149 --> 00:33:48,389
again and we may have heard several

882
00:33:53,629 --> 00:33:50,159
times about how people's memory have

883
00:33:55,099 --> 00:33:53,639
been distorted through court cases yes I

884
00:33:57,439 --> 00:33:55,109
believe that that was the masked man

885
00:33:59,689 --> 00:33:57,449
there and yet we are notoriously

886
00:34:01,459 --> 00:33:59,699
unreliable one of my favorite papers

887
00:34:03,499 --> 00:34:01,469
came up by Prince epi and Smith this

888
00:34:05,689 --> 00:34:03,509
year it's called the truth the whole

889
00:34:07,639 --> 00:34:05,699
truth and nothing but the truth how

890
00:34:10,579 --> 00:34:07,649
belief in the tooth fairy can engender

891
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:10,589
false memories do examine house

892
00:34:14,509 --> 00:34:12,450
children's fantasy beliefs can affect

893
00:34:16,129 --> 00:34:14,519
your memory for your experiences five

894
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:16,139
and six-year-olds with differing levels

895
00:34:19,730 --> 00:34:18,240
of belief in the Tooth Fairy were asked

896
00:34:21,829 --> 00:34:19,740
to recall what they knew about the tooth

897
00:34:23,539 --> 00:34:21,839
fairy those who believed in it suddenly

898
00:34:24,919 --> 00:34:23,549
came up with amazing supernatural

899
00:34:27,349 --> 00:34:24,929
stories of what happened with their

900
00:34:29,299 --> 00:34:27,359
tooth got taken away those who knew that

901
00:34:30,829 --> 00:34:29,309
the Tooth Fairy is just a myth just gave

902
00:34:33,079 --> 00:34:30,839
straightforward factual explanations I

903
00:34:35,210 --> 00:34:33,089
look there wasn't gone there got money

904
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:35,220
brought candy lots more teeth it was

905
00:34:40,519 --> 00:34:38,490
great the psychology of deception and

906
00:34:42,169 --> 00:34:40,529
self-deception magic tricks and this is

907
00:34:44,269 --> 00:34:42,179
probably one of the most popular things

908
00:34:46,009 --> 00:34:44,279
that you can get on stage whenever you

909
00:34:48,799 --> 00:34:46,019
go to a conference about anomalistic

910
00:34:50,240 --> 00:34:48,809
psychology parapsychology anything to do

911
00:34:52,069 --> 00:34:50,250
with skeptics you're going to get

912
00:34:54,710 --> 00:34:52,079
magicians up on the stage Penn and

913
00:34:57,549 --> 00:34:54,720
Teller is a popular one they have a show

914
00:34:59,420 --> 00:34:57,559
many people see it many people recorded

915
00:35:00,650 --> 00:34:59,430
many people are quite shocked by the

916
00:35:02,990 --> 00:35:00,660
language in it there's only one episode

917
00:35:04,490 --> 00:35:03,000
of the show that I can use and that is

918
00:35:07,609 --> 00:35:04,500
the one on the Ouija boards because they

919
00:35:08,599 --> 00:35:07,619
only swear twice I always talk to the

920
00:35:10,819 --> 00:35:08,609
students ahead of time so they're going

921
00:35:12,019 --> 00:35:10,829
to say too bad I'm really sorry and then

922
00:35:14,690 --> 00:35:12,029
they say we know more words in that I

923
00:35:17,569 --> 00:35:14,700
can get thanks cutie regret but

924
00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:17,579
self-deception and self-delusion it's a

925
00:35:20,870 --> 00:35:19,200
big one there are range of other

926
00:35:22,549 --> 00:35:20,880
psychological variables of study in

927
00:35:23,839 --> 00:35:22,559
regards to this I mean how claims are

928
00:35:25,910 --> 00:35:23,849
approached and of course you get

929
00:35:27,380 --> 00:35:25,920
overlaps all the time within normal

930
00:35:29,089 --> 00:35:27,390
psychology so there's two

931
00:35:31,910 --> 00:35:29,099
areas for skeptics is one thing that has

932
00:35:34,339 --> 00:35:31,920
been argued by a popular skeptic the man

933
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:34,349
who writes junior skeptic Daniel Loxton

934
00:35:39,140 --> 00:35:37,200
on the podcast skeptic ality says that

935
00:35:40,910 --> 00:35:39,150
one is the promotion of science literacy

936
00:35:42,650 --> 00:35:40,920
and critical thinking and the other is

937
00:35:45,099 --> 00:35:42,660
consumer protection in fringe science

938
00:35:47,269 --> 00:35:45,109
areas in regards to paranormal claims

939
00:35:49,430 --> 00:35:47,279
now I must admit that there was the

940
00:35:52,130 --> 00:35:49,440
consumer protection idea that first drew

941
00:35:53,839 --> 00:35:52,140
me into looking at skeptical ideas

942
00:35:55,490 --> 00:35:53,849
possibly due to an interest in

943
00:35:56,930 --> 00:35:55,500
documentaries there was a TV show back

944
00:35:58,490 --> 00:35:56,940
in the 80s called the investigators

945
00:36:01,160 --> 00:35:58,500
involving people who are being ripped

946
00:36:02,930 --> 00:36:01,170
off by frauds and scams and the idea

947
00:36:05,569 --> 00:36:02,940
that people could watch out for this

948
00:36:07,130 --> 00:36:05,579
that the con man could be taken apart

949
00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:07,140
and shown to have several techniques

950
00:36:14,349 --> 00:36:09,510
that it was using that you could protect

951
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:17,690
yes I believe they've taken gullible out

952
00:36:21,410 --> 00:36:19,890
of the dictionary and they've said god

953
00:36:25,609 --> 00:36:21,420
you're an idiot and you turn to idiot

954
00:36:27,220 --> 00:36:25,619
and it says not you again oh there we

955
00:36:29,660 --> 00:36:27,230
are studies our beliefs on weird things

956
00:36:32,029 --> 00:36:29,670
that's not a limited list by the way

957
00:36:33,289 --> 00:36:32,039
this is probably the most popular list

958
00:36:36,109 --> 00:36:33,299
of things that you'll get for weird

959
00:36:37,549 --> 00:36:36,119
things ESP peak a psychic readings

960
00:36:38,990 --> 00:36:37,559
psychic healing alternative and

961
00:36:40,759 --> 00:36:39,000
complementary medicine out-of-body and

962
00:36:42,259 --> 00:36:40,769
near death experiences astrology and

963
00:36:45,620 --> 00:36:42,269
other divinatory techniques

964
00:36:48,380 --> 00:36:45,630
reincarnation UFOs and aliens ghosts

965
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:48,390
poltergeists crystal power dowsing two

966
00:36:53,569 --> 00:36:50,970
of my favorite ones include sports

967
00:36:57,559 --> 00:36:53,579
superstitions and theater superstitions

968
00:36:59,299 --> 00:36:57,569
and whenever I find myself approached by

969
00:37:01,069 --> 00:36:59,309
someone who I think is going to be

970
00:37:02,690 --> 00:37:01,079
resisting the idea of looking at these

971
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:02,700
beliefs I medley start off by saying

972
00:37:05,329 --> 00:37:03,690
well let's have a look at theater

973
00:37:06,559 --> 00:37:05,339
superstitions and if I guess oh wow yeah

974
00:37:07,999 --> 00:37:06,569
like you have to turn around the top to

975
00:37:10,279 --> 00:37:08,009
hit five times I'm gonna do if you say

976
00:37:13,970 --> 00:37:10,289
the word Macbeth on a state Macbeth

977
00:37:17,509 --> 00:37:13,980
Macbeth nothing happened then you're

978
00:37:18,769 --> 00:37:17,519
going wearing the same socks again and

979
00:37:20,930 --> 00:37:18,779
again and again if you're a hockey

980
00:37:22,519 --> 00:37:20,940
player the people in the audience have

981
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:22,529
certain rituals that they must do

982
00:37:27,859 --> 00:37:24,930
otherwise the cricketers not going to

983
00:37:30,259 --> 00:37:27,869
get the match fascinating the most

984
00:37:32,900 --> 00:37:30,269
research that you'll find on particular

985
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:32,910
superstitious beliefs it's sports again

986
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:34,890
and again again there are many famous

987
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:38,970
sports people's generally in baseball

988
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:40,570
because baseball is incredibly popular

989
00:37:45,270 --> 00:37:43,210
last time in America they just go wild

990
00:37:47,780 --> 00:37:45,280
go backstage and ask every baseball ok

991
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:47,790
which about you use which foot rooting I

992
00:37:53,010 --> 00:37:50,610
remember when I first handed in my

993
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:53,020
proposal to my professor at UWA if you

994
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:54,850
said you're using too many abbreviations

995
00:37:59,220 --> 00:37:56,770
I don't know what they mean and I said

996
00:38:00,450 --> 00:37:59,230
oh you mean like PK psychokinesis the

997
00:38:02,010 --> 00:38:00,460
belief that you can move something like

998
00:38:05,610 --> 00:38:02,020
just using your mind he said no I don't

999
00:38:07,380 --> 00:38:05,620
know what OCD means I said

1000
00:38:09,150 --> 00:38:07,390
obsessive-compulsive disorder so why is

1001
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:09,160
that important because people get

1002
00:38:12,210 --> 00:38:10,570
worried whether or not you're saying

1003
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:12,220
someone has a particular ritual again

1004
00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:14,290
and again before they go up to the bat

1005
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:16,510
or to hit the ball is it ritual because

1006
00:38:19,770 --> 00:38:18,850
of superstition or is it OCD these are

1007
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:19,780
the sort of things that you have to

1008
00:38:25,470 --> 00:38:22,930
start going into now I personally define

1009
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:25,480
atheism as a lack of belief in a date he

1010
00:38:29,670 --> 00:38:28,210
of any sort defined or not now there's a

1011
00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:29,680
variety of reasons why someone might

1012
00:38:34,380 --> 00:38:31,510
call themselves an atheist sometimes it

1013
00:38:35,850 --> 00:38:34,390
might be personal experience sometimes

1014
00:38:37,860 --> 00:38:35,860
people have gone through a massive

1015
00:38:41,190 --> 00:38:37,870
experience in their lives and reasoned

1016
00:38:43,590 --> 00:38:41,200
it out it varies there's so many how I

1017
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:43,600
came to be accounts and it'd be lovely

1018
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:45,850
to see more books on this skepticism

1019
00:38:50,490 --> 00:38:48,370
however rarely takes on fundamental

1020
00:38:51,930 --> 00:38:50,500
religion claims directly and certainly

1021
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:51,940
not within the bounds of their normal

1022
00:38:56,370 --> 00:38:54,490
skeptical investigations the essay by

1023
00:38:58,470 --> 00:38:56,380
Daniel Loxton where do we go from here

1024
00:39:00,390 --> 00:38:58,480
discuss the important of dealing with

1025
00:39:02,670 --> 00:39:00,400
this core business of skepticism because

1026
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:02,680
there are groups like atheists humanists

1027
00:39:06,390 --> 00:39:04,570
secular humanists and so forth who are

1028
00:39:08,220 --> 00:39:06,400
doing a massively popular job on

1029
00:39:09,810 --> 00:39:08,230
investigating a variety of things that

1030
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:09,820
fundamentalists do and that religions

1031
00:39:15,150 --> 00:39:13,330
too big one at the moment protests about

1032
00:39:16,950 --> 00:39:15,160
World Youth Day I know that there's been

1033
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:16,960
quite a lot of organization in regards

1034
00:39:20,730 --> 00:39:19,210
to protesting how right to human rights

1035
00:39:23,190 --> 00:39:20,740
have been taken away due to world youth

1036
00:39:25,230 --> 00:39:23,200
today yet an atheist can still believe

1037
00:39:27,390 --> 00:39:25,240
that their horoscope is true an atheist

1038
00:39:29,130 --> 00:39:27,400
can quite easily believe that human

1039
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:29,140
beings never landed on the moon you can

1040
00:39:32,340 --> 00:39:30,610
have all sorts of conspiracy theory

1041
00:39:34,950 --> 00:39:32,350
beliefs that are believed by a variety

1042
00:39:36,570 --> 00:39:34,960
of people I've had students who were

1043
00:39:38,550 --> 00:39:36,580
Buddhists tell me that their tarot cards

1044
00:39:40,380 --> 00:39:38,560
could tell them the future and I've had

1045
00:39:42,420 --> 00:39:40,390
atheists tell me that the moon makes

1046
00:39:44,700 --> 00:39:42,430
people more crazy than usual of course

1047
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:44,710
it does full moon people go crazy they

1048
00:39:49,230 --> 00:39:47,050
go nuts crime rates skyrocket there's

1049
00:39:50,820 --> 00:39:49,240
been study after study after study after

1050
00:39:51,930 --> 00:39:50,830
study showing that this isn't true but

1051
00:39:53,730 --> 00:39:51,940
yeah

1052
00:39:55,140 --> 00:39:53,740
it's just something about the moon kids

1053
00:39:57,110 --> 00:39:55,150
turn into Wells you look at them in a

1054
00:39:59,340 --> 00:39:57,120
playground they're just going bonkers

1055
00:40:01,350 --> 00:39:59,350
yeah there must be something in it

1056
00:40:03,780 --> 00:40:01,360
likewise skepticism isn't a belief

1057
00:40:05,580 --> 00:40:03,790
system what matters is the evidence you

1058
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:05,590
can see how the two there are elements

1059
00:40:09,810 --> 00:40:07,450
within skepticism that would certainly

1060
00:40:12,540 --> 00:40:09,820
appeal to atheists and yet I still see

1061
00:40:14,730 --> 00:40:12,550
the two is distinct certainly a close-up

1062
00:40:17,670 --> 00:40:14,740
Venn diagram at times but in my mind

1063
00:40:18,930 --> 00:40:17,680
distinct as a teacher there are certain

1064
00:40:20,910 --> 00:40:18,940
elements that I've come up against which

1065
00:40:23,010 --> 00:40:20,920
are just examples of sheer bad science

1066
00:40:24,660 --> 00:40:23,020
and it didn't matter if that science

1067
00:40:27,990 --> 00:40:24,670
teachers are working with were the

1068
00:40:29,730 --> 00:40:28,000
Muslim Christian atheist never told me

1069
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:29,740
there were things in which we were just

1070
00:40:33,620 --> 00:40:31,930
got our water I've got to that I'll

1071
00:40:35,790 --> 00:40:33,630
discuss which might be of interest you

1072
00:40:38,010 --> 00:40:35,800
not just those who are atheists or

1073
00:40:39,390 --> 00:40:38,020
skeptic or whatever but in the interest

1074
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:39,400
of education of young people there's

1075
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:40,450
some pretty shocking things that are

1076
00:40:44,790 --> 00:40:42,850
going out there as a final point what's

1077
00:40:46,140 --> 00:40:44,800
critical thinking taking a skeptical

1078
00:40:48,390 --> 00:40:46,150
approach is not the only way that we can

1079
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:48,400
think there's introspection you can

1080
00:40:52,740 --> 00:40:49,810
develop your reasoning based upon

1081
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:52,750
emotions there's postmodernist ideas

1082
00:40:56,460 --> 00:40:54,610
involved in social construction creating

1083
00:40:58,080 --> 00:40:56,470
and narrative of what is truth you get

1084
00:41:00,060 --> 00:40:58,090
this and literary criticism all the time

1085
00:41:02,010 --> 00:41:00,070
there's a variety approaches in

1086
00:41:04,220 --> 00:41:02,020
philosophy to thinking and all of these

1087
00:41:06,420 --> 00:41:04,230
should be taught in philosophy classes

1088
00:41:08,310 --> 00:41:06,430
critical thinking is defined by Greg

1089
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:08,320
Haskins in a practical guide to critical

1090
00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:11,170
thinking as a process by which we use

1091
00:41:14,220 --> 00:41:12,730
our knowledge and intelligence to

1092
00:41:16,140 --> 00:41:14,230
effectively arrive at the most

1093
00:41:18,930 --> 00:41:16,150
reasonable and justifiable position on

1094
00:41:22,140 --> 00:41:18,940
issues this may not be the most reasoned

1095
00:41:23,700 --> 00:41:22,150
way but certainly becomes across the one

1096
00:41:25,890 --> 00:41:23,710
as reasonable you could defend it and

1097
00:41:27,420 --> 00:41:25,900
which endeavours to identify and

1098
00:41:29,010 --> 00:41:27,430
overcome the numerous hindrances to

1099
00:41:30,870 --> 00:41:29,020
rational thinking regarding the

1100
00:41:33,510 --> 00:41:30,880
philosophical approach to skepticism as

1101
00:41:36,210 --> 00:41:33,520
i mentioned that radical skepticism such

1102
00:41:38,490 --> 00:41:36,220
as shown by pyro it has the notion that

1103
00:41:40,140 --> 00:41:38,500
we know nothing at all regarding schools

1104
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:40,150
and education within the philosophy and

1105
00:41:44,010 --> 00:41:42,010
ethics course which only started this

1106
00:41:45,420 --> 00:41:44,020
year for you eleven students next year

1107
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:45,430
will be open for your twelve students

1108
00:41:49,650 --> 00:41:47,650
and within the education in general yes

1109
00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:49,660
students should be allowed to are

1110
00:41:53,730 --> 00:41:51,730
skeptical questions put constructive

1111
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:53,740
answers in reply feel free to go either

1112
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:55,930
way play the devil's advocate to take a

1113
00:41:59,520 --> 00:41:57,370
sign that they don't necessarily believe

1114
00:42:01,860 --> 00:41:59,530
in it's all part of education as far as

1115
00:42:03,450 --> 00:42:01,870
I'm concerned the goal of critical

1116
00:42:05,190 --> 00:42:03,460
thinking is not to create clever clever

1117
00:42:07,470 --> 00:42:05,200
elitist to go around knocking

1118
00:42:10,410 --> 00:42:07,480
things down I've got a favorite short

1119
00:42:12,780 --> 00:42:10,420
story love as a fallacy imagines himself

1120
00:42:14,609 --> 00:42:12,790
to be such an elitist that he can

1121
00:42:17,849 --> 00:42:14,619
convince the young woman that he can

1122
00:42:20,310 --> 00:42:17,859
fall in love with him just do to logical

1123
00:42:23,220 --> 00:42:20,320
reasoning it doesn't work eventually she

1124
00:42:24,660 --> 00:42:23,230
shows him ah eventually she shows and

1125
00:42:27,180 --> 00:42:24,670
that in the end the hearts going to win

1126
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:27,190
out it's a nice cute story and all but

1127
00:42:31,140 --> 00:42:28,810
certainly one that we like to discuss

1128
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:31,150
with students that very few philosophers

1129
00:42:34,829 --> 00:42:32,890
are actually skeptics and to study

1130
00:42:37,500 --> 00:42:34,839
critical thinking philosophy logical

1131
00:42:38,849 --> 00:42:37,510
reasoning and to remove a huge bulk of

1132
00:42:40,740 --> 00:42:38,859
the tradition would be doing a

1133
00:42:43,050 --> 00:42:40,750
disservice it would become a very boring

1134
00:42:45,329 --> 00:42:43,060
course I think quite frankly so although

1135
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:45,339
we distinguish skepticism as a process

1136
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:47,410
we see evidence and make good arguments

1137
00:42:51,329 --> 00:42:48,970
of all claims usually related to the

1138
00:42:52,530 --> 00:42:51,339
paranormal pseudoscience important to

1139
00:42:54,750 --> 00:42:52,540
realize that there's other elements

1140
00:42:57,359 --> 00:42:54,760
weird things ladies and gentlemen in

1141
00:42:59,460 --> 00:42:57,369
front of you is a copy of today's

1142
00:43:00,990 --> 00:42:59,470
horoscope well it would be today's

1143
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:01,000
horoscope if it wasn't for the fact that

1144
00:43:06,599 --> 00:43:03,490
Aries Sagittarius cancer Capricorn

1145
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:06,609
they've all been removed can you spot

1146
00:43:10,859 --> 00:43:08,290
yourself after experiencing what you

1147
00:43:12,210 --> 00:43:10,869
went through today there's one or two on

1148
00:43:14,339 --> 00:43:12,220
there that which are really quite nasty

1149
00:43:17,069 --> 00:43:14,349
which shocked me and put me in fact in

1150
00:43:20,099 --> 00:43:17,079
mind of Douglas Adams and other famous

1151
00:43:22,650 --> 00:43:20,109
atheists who in his stories about Dirk

1152
00:43:24,839 --> 00:43:22,660
Gently had the sad experience of Dirk

1153
00:43:27,780 --> 00:43:24,849
Gently who managed to very much annoy a

1154
00:43:29,700 --> 00:43:27,790
local horoscope writer and so because

1155
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:29,710
the horoscope right in you Gentiles

1156
00:43:33,900 --> 00:43:31,450
birthday would always purposely make

1157
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:33,910
that particular horoscope sign the worst

1158
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:35,890
one ever it's like you're going to die

1159
00:43:39,450 --> 00:43:37,810
in a hole but people would write in the

1160
00:43:40,559 --> 00:43:39,460
newspaper complaining how come cancer is

1161
00:43:42,839 --> 00:43:40,569
saying that i'm going to die in a hole

1162
00:43:44,430 --> 00:43:42,849
were burning plane crash and pope i get

1163
00:43:45,809 --> 00:43:44,440
eaten by piranhas but he would just keep

1164
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:45,819
on doing it just to annoy Dirk Gently

1165
00:43:49,980 --> 00:43:47,530
this ladies and gentlemen was

1166
00:43:52,829 --> 00:43:49,990
essentially what my high school has came

1167
00:43:55,589 --> 00:43:52,839
up with they got a sheet of paper cut

1168
00:43:58,890 --> 00:43:55,599
out all the elements which identified

1169
00:44:01,440 --> 00:43:58,900
who was what gave it out to students in

1170
00:44:03,210 --> 00:44:01,450
the playground and said who are you and

1171
00:44:05,309 --> 00:44:03,220
they found out how many people were able

1172
00:44:07,170 --> 00:44:05,319
to accurately figure out who they were I

1173
00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:07,180
think they had a success rate of about

1174
00:44:12,210 --> 00:44:09,730
out of a hundred students two percent

1175
00:44:14,910 --> 00:44:12,220
this is how they studied the notion of

1176
00:44:17,140 --> 00:44:14,920
the Barnum effect or the for effect

1177
00:44:19,029 --> 00:44:17,150
which is you put out a nice

1178
00:44:21,279 --> 00:44:19,039
blanket statement which could apply to

1179
00:44:23,549 --> 00:44:21,289
anyone and people will automatically

1180
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:23,559
start to say oh yes this could be me

1181
00:44:28,630 --> 00:44:26,210
there is another experiment which james

1182
00:44:30,220 --> 00:44:28,640
randi does in one of his famous videos

1183
00:44:32,410 --> 00:44:30,230
that you can find online thanks to the

1184
00:44:36,339 --> 00:44:32,420
wonder of YouTube and it's marvelous

1185
00:44:38,319 --> 00:44:36,349
disregard for copyright where he hands

1186
00:44:39,730 --> 00:44:38,329
out a for effect statement to a variety

1187
00:44:41,620 --> 00:44:39,740
of people telling them this was

1188
00:44:43,359 --> 00:44:41,630
specially made for you and then he asked

1189
00:44:45,700 --> 00:44:43,369
for handed up how many people think that

1190
00:44:48,099 --> 00:44:45,710
out of accuracy this is a 4 out of 5

1191
00:44:49,930 --> 00:44:48,109
most people put the hands up five out of

1192
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:49,940
five the rest of the class but the hands

1193
00:44:56,140 --> 00:44:54,650
up please derren brown's another

1194
00:44:57,490 --> 00:44:56,150
fabulous one again thanks to the

1195
00:44:58,930 --> 00:44:57,500
wonderful disregard a copyright on

1196
00:45:01,029 --> 00:44:58,940
youtube you can find it yourself with a

1197
00:45:05,039 --> 00:45:01,039
couple of search angels prepare to get

1198
00:45:08,589 --> 00:45:05,049
the unicycle potential yet talipes

1199
00:45:10,180 --> 00:45:08,599
astrological chart is out so far because

1200
00:45:13,690 --> 00:45:10,190
of the ships of the year that is huggies

1201
00:45:15,849 --> 00:45:13,700
i think is 26 degrees food but i think

1202
00:45:17,620 --> 00:45:15,859
it's that much it means that all your

1203
00:45:20,319 --> 00:45:17,630
astrological charts are so far out that

1204
00:45:22,660 --> 00:45:20,329
they're talking about yes and the sign

1205
00:45:24,819 --> 00:45:22,670
of a fuchsias is missing as well the

1206
00:45:27,010 --> 00:45:24,829
idea that pattalam ease chart doesn't

1207
00:45:29,170 --> 00:45:27,020
accurately match what is happening now

1208
00:45:30,849 --> 00:45:29,180
in 2008 yes that's true they're so

1209
00:45:33,250 --> 00:45:30,859
illogical bodies have moved over time

1210
00:45:34,809 --> 00:45:33,260
and so how much relevance is has a god

1211
00:45:36,130 --> 00:45:34,819
and there's the missing sign of fuchsias

1212
00:45:37,539 --> 00:45:36,140
which I would usually show to the

1213
00:45:39,609 --> 00:45:37,549
students and point out to them that in

1214
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:39,619
fact the astrological sign had often

1215
00:45:44,349 --> 00:45:41,690
shifted by one or two places northern

1216
00:45:47,859 --> 00:45:44,359
and northern hemisphere as well yeah so

1217
00:45:49,420 --> 00:45:47,869
there's a variety of things which yes

1218
00:45:51,069 --> 00:45:49,430
and it's something that students can

1219
00:45:54,130 --> 00:45:51,079
write a lot about which is fabulous

1220
00:45:56,650 --> 00:45:54,140
they're able to research write it out in

1221
00:45:58,539 --> 00:45:56,660
a logical manner do surveys do the stats

1222
00:46:00,220 --> 00:45:58,549
behind it come back to a wonderful

1223
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:00,230
presentation from the class it's great

1224
00:46:04,269 --> 00:46:02,450
and yet there's issues with this this

1225
00:46:06,279 --> 00:46:04,279
was a simple activity that I could do

1226
00:46:07,690 --> 00:46:06,289
with high school students and yet you

1227
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:07,700
have to realize the sort of culture that

1228
00:46:11,079 --> 00:46:09,650
we live in people make money out of

1229
00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:11,089
these people make a lot of money on

1230
00:46:16,150 --> 00:46:13,250
people managed to get themselves in

1231
00:46:17,500 --> 00:46:16,160
women's day for the entire career just

1232
00:46:19,269 --> 00:46:17,510
based on the ability to come up with

1233
00:46:21,489 --> 00:46:19,279
those poor infected items

1234
00:46:23,380 --> 00:46:21,499
and in some cases yes they furman

1235
00:46:25,630 --> 00:46:23,390
believe in it entire families depend

1236
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:25,640
upon it and as Daniel Loxton himself

1237
00:46:29,919 --> 00:46:27,890
says about some of the more recent stats

1238
00:46:32,019 --> 00:46:29,929
it's emphatically the case the

1239
00:46:33,789 --> 00:46:32,029
paranormal police are widespread the

1240
00:46:35,769 --> 00:46:33,799
notion that traditional paranormal

1241
00:46:37,509 --> 00:46:35,779
topics are dead it flies in the face of

1242
00:46:39,699 --> 00:46:37,519
the fact that according to a gallup poll

1243
00:46:41,799 --> 00:46:39,709
in 2005 three-quarters of Americans

1244
00:46:44,140 --> 00:46:41,809
believe at least one claim from a list

1245
00:46:45,699 --> 00:46:44,150
of 10 classic paranormal items for

1246
00:46:47,109 --> 00:46:45,709
example if you have no opinion regarding

1247
00:46:48,549 --> 00:46:47,119
astrology although the position and

1248
00:46:50,439 --> 00:46:48,559
stars and planets can affect people's

1249
00:46:52,439 --> 00:46:50,449
lives fully twenty five percent of

1250
00:46:54,969 --> 00:46:52,449
americans say they believe in astrology

1251
00:46:57,939 --> 00:46:54,979
and if you're keeping count that's 75

1252
00:47:00,009 --> 00:46:57,949
million people in the US alone my own

1253
00:47:02,049 --> 00:47:00,019
research the most recent major

1254
00:47:06,399 --> 00:47:02,059
paranormal research that's come out is

1255
00:47:08,499 --> 00:47:06,409
from the UK the ipsos mori in 2007 held

1256
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:08,509
in the UK the third of people believe

1257
00:47:12,279 --> 00:47:10,130
that governments around the world are

1258
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:12,289
concealing evidence of extraterrestrial

1259
00:47:17,049 --> 00:47:15,650
beings nine percent yeah nine percent

1260
00:47:19,659 --> 00:47:17,059
believe that crop circles are the work

1261
00:47:21,939 --> 00:47:19,669
of extraterrestrial forces my year

1262
00:47:24,279 --> 00:47:21,949
eights created a crop circle on the

1263
00:47:26,049 --> 00:47:24,289
front lawn by simply using planks of

1264
00:47:28,269 --> 00:47:26,059
wood and by getting it was a class of

1265
00:47:29,890 --> 00:47:28,279
about 22 they just stomped on it they

1266
00:47:31,870 --> 00:47:29,900
stomped and stomped and stomped until

1267
00:47:35,259 --> 00:47:31,880
they created a big beautiful smiley face

1268
00:47:37,029 --> 00:47:35,269
in the lawn their very own crop circle

1269
00:47:39,999 --> 00:47:37,039
it was that easy we took photographic

1270
00:47:41,739 --> 00:47:40,009
evidence and yet people still continue

1271
00:47:46,319 --> 00:47:41,749
to write books I found one recently say

1272
00:47:48,699 --> 00:47:46,329
crop circles are the work of aliens I

1273
00:47:49,929 --> 00:47:48,709
know that by the time they hit year nine

1274
00:47:51,309 --> 00:47:49,939
so they probably started acting like

1275
00:47:54,159 --> 00:47:51,319
aliens but until then there were minor

1276
00:47:55,809 --> 00:47:54,169
eight students therefore we have worries

1277
00:47:57,819 --> 00:47:55,819
that students are learning of truths my

1278
00:47:59,919 --> 00:47:57,829
daughter created a crop circle don't you

1279
00:48:04,689 --> 00:47:59,929
know that she is making fun of the

1280
00:48:07,349 --> 00:48:04,699
aliens and their artwork and and her dad

1281
00:48:09,999 --> 00:48:07,359
was abducted by an alien he thinks and

1282
00:48:11,660 --> 00:48:10,009
therefore what are you doing mocking his

1283
00:48:15,300 --> 00:48:11,670
beliefs as well

1284
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:15,310
yeah exactly students are going to be

1285
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:16,690
panicked about ghosts if you talk about

1286
00:48:21,530 --> 00:48:19,090
ghosts students are going to call up the

1287
00:48:23,370 --> 00:48:21,540
demons if you use in a Ouija board

1288
00:48:24,810 --> 00:48:23,380
doesn't matter that they made it

1289
00:48:26,910 --> 00:48:24,820
themselves out of a couple of golf balls

1290
00:48:29,550 --> 00:48:26,920
and bit of cardboard no this is going to

1291
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:29,560
be a conduit to the other side and for

1292
00:48:33,630 --> 00:48:32,170
them absolutely perfectly reasonable

1293
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:33,640
they can make a case to the school in

1294
00:48:39,210 --> 00:48:36,610
the school most likely back off this has

1295
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:39,220
been recorded before in let me see i

1296
00:48:44,010 --> 00:48:41,530
believe it was 1997 in The Skeptical

1297
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:44,020
Inquirer a man named Larry barrio who

1298
00:48:47,310 --> 00:48:45,970
wrote about how permissions were given

1299
00:48:48,810 --> 00:48:47,320
by the school for him to do this with

1300
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:48,820
his primary school class and then just

1301
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:51,010
as rapidly taken away so what do you do

1302
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:52,810
keeping that less than my mind from the

1303
00:48:57,210 --> 00:48:55,330
very beginning my own approach is pretty

1304
00:48:59,970 --> 00:48:57,220
straightforward I told everybody what I

1305
00:49:02,280 --> 00:48:59,980
was doing absolutely everybody I didn't

1306
00:49:04,980 --> 00:49:02,290
shut up about it I told the school

1307
00:49:06,450 --> 00:49:04,990
counselors the deputy principal the

1308
00:49:07,950 --> 00:49:06,460
science teachers the maths teachers

1309
00:49:09,270 --> 00:49:07,960
particularly regarding stats that are

1310
00:49:10,620 --> 00:49:09,280
really helpful when you know you don't

1311
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:10,630
often get an English teacher coming and

1312
00:49:14,610 --> 00:49:12,130
saying okay so that the binomial that we

1313
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:14,620
got here will be possibly yet they just

1314
00:49:20,580 --> 00:49:17,410
went freaky out of that are people value

1315
00:49:23,010 --> 00:49:20,590
our subject cross curricula why not I

1316
00:49:25,050 --> 00:49:23,020
told fellow department members i told

1317
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:25,060
the boarding house very important if

1318
00:49:28,260 --> 00:49:26,530
you've got a boarding house because the

1319
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:28,270
kids live on school campus and so forth

1320
00:49:32,670 --> 00:49:30,490
away from mom and dad it's all part of

1321
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:32,680
pastoral care I told the media group of

1322
00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:34,330
the school the students won recognition

1323
00:49:39,150 --> 00:49:36,730
for their for their investigations we

1324
00:49:41,940 --> 00:49:39,160
got in the newspaper about it and yet

1325
00:49:44,330 --> 00:49:41,950
there are still resistance it took two

1326
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:44,340
years but there was still resistance

1327
00:49:47,790 --> 00:49:46,450
there's also the importance of

1328
00:49:49,890 --> 00:49:47,800
overarching curriculum I have to

1329
00:49:52,860 --> 00:49:49,900
emphasize but by creating lesson plans

1330
00:49:55,170 --> 00:49:52,870
it was a lot of work to do this to be

1331
00:49:56,940 --> 00:49:55,180
able to come up with the ideas to help

1332
00:49:59,100 --> 00:49:56,950
the students cut out the little pieces

1333
00:50:00,930 --> 00:49:59,110
it was it was more than that it was

1334
00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:00,940
digging out resources the fact that

1335
00:50:05,250 --> 00:50:02,730
youtube is blocked in many schools

1336
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:05,260
getting videos from overseas and making

1337
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:06,850
sure that level compatible on the system

1338
00:50:11,340 --> 00:50:09,490
at school a lot of reading a book sri

1339
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:11,350
writing of articles and paraphrasing

1340
00:50:15,510 --> 00:50:12,490
them so it's suitable for a younger

1341
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:15,520
audience it was massive in consultation

1342
00:50:19,980 --> 00:50:17,170
with other teachers finding resources in

1343
00:50:22,620 --> 00:50:19,990
both audio and visual some things just

1344
00:50:22,900 --> 00:50:22,630
aren't suitable Penn & Teller gone this

1345
00:50:24,339 --> 00:50:22,910
is

1346
00:50:26,710 --> 00:50:24,349
not to criticize Penn & Teller for what

1347
00:50:28,870 --> 00:50:26,720
they do what they do is fabulous it just

1348
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:28,880
has a specific audience and it's not

1349
00:50:32,410 --> 00:50:30,530
kids they have done stuff for kids

1350
00:50:34,029 --> 00:50:32,420
before there's a fabulous series that

1351
00:50:35,289 --> 00:50:34,039
they did about art and there were

1352
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:35,299
elements in that which I could have used

1353
00:50:39,220 --> 00:50:37,490
Penn & Teller are perfectly within their

1354
00:50:40,329 --> 00:50:39,230
right to create what they think suiting

1355
00:50:43,270 --> 00:50:40,339
the audience that they have out there

1356
00:50:44,890 --> 00:50:43,280
but for kids it's a bit tougher I ended

1357
00:50:48,190 --> 00:50:44,900
up turning to a wider framework in the

1358
00:50:50,549 --> 00:50:48,200
end no single website could support this

1359
00:50:52,779 --> 00:50:50,559
well enough as far as I thought and

1360
00:50:54,099 --> 00:50:52,789
because I was involved with philosophy

1361
00:50:55,329 --> 00:50:54,109
for children who are contributing to the

1362
00:50:57,940 --> 00:50:55,339
philosophy and ethics course which

1363
00:50:59,799 --> 00:50:57,950
started it was much easier to get

1364
00:51:01,779 --> 00:50:59,809
skepticism and critical thinking in this

1365
00:51:05,319 --> 00:51:01,789
particular aspect by using paranormal

1366
00:51:07,150 --> 00:51:05,329
claims into a formal framework the

1367
00:51:08,770 --> 00:51:07,160
philosophy and ethics course if you are

1368
00:51:10,329 --> 00:51:08,780
unfamiliar with it I've got copies of

1369
00:51:12,309 --> 00:51:10,339
the syllabus over there feel free to

1370
00:51:14,049 --> 00:51:12,319
look over them philosophy is meant to be

1371
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:14,059
a practical activity we do philosophy

1372
00:51:17,289 --> 00:51:15,770
when we seek to define something when we

1373
00:51:19,569 --> 00:51:17,299
challenge assumptions where we construct

1374
00:51:21,099 --> 00:51:19,579
an argument it's going to be a skill

1375
00:51:23,770 --> 00:51:21,109
that's useful in our personal world our

1376
00:51:25,180 --> 00:51:23,780
social world world of work and in the

1377
00:51:27,039 --> 00:51:25,190
wider questions about how the world

1378
00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:27,049
works they learn skills that can be

1379
00:51:30,339 --> 00:51:28,640
transferred to many different situations

1380
00:51:31,750 --> 00:51:30,349
and contexts and students who do

1381
00:51:33,730 --> 00:51:31,760
philosophy and ethics can acquire these

1382
00:51:35,769 --> 00:51:33,740
skills and become thinkers who recognize

1383
00:51:37,359 --> 00:51:35,779
and reflect critically on issues in the

1384
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:37,369
life of their own and others experiences

1385
00:51:42,250 --> 00:51:40,010
so pseudoscience an education this is

1386
00:51:44,890 --> 00:51:42,260
probably closer to the end of what I do

1387
00:51:46,690 --> 00:51:44,900
in terms of what I've discovered through

1388
00:51:48,460 --> 00:51:46,700
blogging pseudo science and education

1389
00:51:50,410 --> 00:51:48,470
has cropped up again and again and those

1390
00:51:52,510 --> 00:51:50,420
of you work in an industry where you

1391
00:51:53,740 --> 00:51:52,520
have pd days or where someone comes and

1392
00:51:55,779 --> 00:51:53,750
says right we're going to figure out the

1393
00:51:58,089 --> 00:51:55,789
personality of everybody here we're

1394
00:52:00,490 --> 00:51:58,099
going to do a lovely chart or four boxes

1395
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:00,500
red green blue yellow and we're going to

1396
00:52:03,339 --> 00:52:01,970
figure out where your personality fits

1397
00:52:04,839 --> 00:52:03,349
into it and whether or not you're a team

1398
00:52:06,490 --> 00:52:04,849
player and who they're everyone like I

1399
00:52:07,329 --> 00:52:06,500
where you happen so yeah and eventually

1400
00:52:09,250 --> 00:52:07,339
you're just sitting there saying you

1401
00:52:11,019 --> 00:52:09,260
know I really could have just spent the

1402
00:52:13,210 --> 00:52:11,029
whole afternoon playing solitaire and

1403
00:52:15,430 --> 00:52:13,220
got more intellectual engagement out of

1404
00:52:17,349 --> 00:52:15,440
this it happens in the education

1405
00:52:18,579 --> 00:52:17,359
industry as well where people will say

1406
00:52:19,870 --> 00:52:18,589
we're going to be doing this particular

1407
00:52:21,789 --> 00:52:19,880
activity it's going to be fabulous for

1408
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:21,799
kids and you're saying yeah but where's

1409
00:52:24,579 --> 00:52:23,450
the underpinning reason for this what

1410
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:24,589
makes you think that the kids are going

1411
00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:27,130
to get in fact what sort of

1412
00:52:30,460 --> 00:52:28,730
qualifications do you have an

1413
00:52:32,470 --> 00:52:30,470
educational psych anyway where is this

1414
00:52:35,019 --> 00:52:32,480
coming from a variety of packages and

1415
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:35,029
programs come out one particular one

1416
00:52:36,930 --> 00:52:35,290
that

1417
00:52:39,720 --> 00:52:36,940
ice personally have issues with is Eddie

1418
00:52:42,750 --> 00:52:39,730
door is one of the big bug gears that

1419
00:52:45,050 --> 00:52:42,760
I've come up across door simply came up

1420
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:45,060
across because there are a few bloggers

1421
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:48,850
investigating it door is a program

1422
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:50,410
started by man called winter fur door

1423
00:52:54,900 --> 00:52:51,610
who had a daughter who suffered from

1424
00:52:57,030 --> 00:52:54,910
dyslexia incredibly sad story very

1425
00:52:59,580 --> 00:52:57,040
traumatized by the fact that she had

1426
00:53:02,960 --> 00:52:59,590
dyslexia he decided to come up with a

1427
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:02,970
cure it involves balancing and juggling

1428
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:06,370
I'm standing on a board he makes a lot

1429
00:53:10,530 --> 00:53:08,410
of money out of this door recently

1430
00:53:12,210 --> 00:53:10,540
collapsed in Australia in fact I'm I had

1431
00:53:14,670 --> 00:53:12,220
the opportunity to go to a meeting day

1432
00:53:16,350 --> 00:53:14,680
for it collapse in Australia first and

1433
00:53:18,540 --> 00:53:16,360
we in Australia the bloggers of a

1434
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:18,550
network of about 50 I was the one

1435
00:53:21,450 --> 00:53:20,410
Australian in the group and so on the

1436
00:53:23,580 --> 00:53:21,460
day that they were going to have an open

1437
00:53:24,660 --> 00:53:23,590
day at door I contacted the bloggers and

1438
00:53:26,310 --> 00:53:24,670
said I just went past the building

1439
00:53:27,630 --> 00:53:26,320
they're shut down I said can you find

1440
00:53:29,460 --> 00:53:27,640
them it's ok phone and phoned about and

1441
00:53:31,830 --> 00:53:29,470
i said hi what's happening said oh we've

1442
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:31,840
gone into financial disarray nough said

1443
00:53:34,950 --> 00:53:33,490
ah what does this mean if this

1444
00:53:36,300 --> 00:53:34,960
particular things is ok these are the

1445
00:53:37,470 --> 00:53:36,310
things that they have to go through if

1446
00:53:39,930 --> 00:53:37,480
they're saying this particular thing

1447
00:53:42,240 --> 00:53:39,940
fabulous blogged it immediately that

1448
00:53:44,730 --> 00:53:42,250
then went over to the UK was blogged on

1449
00:53:47,550 --> 00:53:44,740
their blogs and next thing you know Ben

1450
00:53:49,290 --> 00:53:47,560
Goldacre is coming out with a an article

1451
00:53:52,140 --> 00:53:49,300
in The Guardian saying these particular

1452
00:53:54,810 --> 00:53:52,150
bloggers broke the story door however is

1453
00:53:57,300 --> 00:53:54,820
a classic example of pseudoscience it is

1454
00:54:00,870 --> 00:53:57,310
now arising again as an independent

1455
00:54:02,370 --> 00:54:00,880
group without clinics as they used to

1456
00:54:04,350 --> 00:54:02,380
depend upon where they charge people

1457
00:54:06,450 --> 00:54:04,360
thousands of dollars just to come in for

1458
00:54:07,860 --> 00:54:06,460
a certain amount of time now it's an

1459
00:54:10,260 --> 00:54:07,870
independent program that can be sold out

1460
00:54:11,970 --> 00:54:10,270
to people which doesn't require people

1461
00:54:15,180 --> 00:54:11,980
standing over making sure the kids go

1462
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:15,190
over the activities door won't stop many

1463
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:17,050
projects that go on there's a lot of

1464
00:54:20,790 --> 00:54:18,370
money to be made out of people who

1465
00:54:22,590 --> 00:54:20,800
believed strongly even at the points

1466
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:22,600
that some of the bloggers set up an

1467
00:54:27,420 --> 00:54:25,450
alternative forum so the parents who

1468
00:54:29,490 --> 00:54:27,430
were engaged in door who are at a loss

1469
00:54:31,650 --> 00:54:29,500
as to how the door for ins are shutting

1470
00:54:33,720 --> 00:54:31,660
down because the company was gone even

1471
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:33,730
when a new forum was started up didn't

1472
00:54:38,130 --> 00:54:36,490
matter how much we would point out the

1473
00:54:39,900 --> 00:54:38,140
scientific evidence in the end their

1474
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:39,910
belief was stronger ever heard of focus

1475
00:54:48,330 --> 00:54:45,900
this no apologies the truth about life

1476
00:54:50,010 --> 00:54:48,340
love and sex this is the sort of lovely

1477
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:50,020
little book that gets handed out to and

1478
00:54:54,060 --> 00:54:52,090
a certain teachers year 11 students

1479
00:54:57,360 --> 00:54:54,070
telling them that abstinence-only

1480
00:55:00,060 --> 00:54:57,370
education is the only way this ended up

1481
00:55:02,100 --> 00:55:00,070
in the news after parents found out no

1482
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:02,110
apologies is a classic example books

1483
00:55:06,570 --> 00:55:04,930
which are being put out there there are

1484
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:06,580
religious education teachers who would

1485
00:55:10,620 --> 00:55:08,290
look at that and just piss themselves

1486
00:55:12,090 --> 00:55:10,630
laughing of course it is absurd all the

1487
00:55:13,770 --> 00:55:12,100
research points out that abstinence only

1488
00:55:15,180 --> 00:55:13,780
education is a massive failure and in

1489
00:55:18,210 --> 00:55:15,190
fact is incredibly damaging to a

1490
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:18,220
community and yet books are still being

1491
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:20,770
published such as this one and are able

1492
00:55:25,730 --> 00:55:23,530
to get into schools this one however I

1493
00:55:27,900 --> 00:55:25,740
don't know if you know about Creelman

1494
00:55:30,300 --> 00:55:27,910
seeing this if you have anyone who does

1495
00:55:34,020 --> 00:55:30,310
two years still program that's still

1496
00:55:36,150 --> 00:55:34,030
going out it promotes creationism it's a

1497
00:55:38,220 --> 00:55:36,160
study guide the last paragraph on

1498
00:55:39,720 --> 00:55:38,230
teaching creationism in schools the

1499
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:39,730
reason for the amazing string of

1500
00:55:42,990 --> 00:55:41,410
successes we had with our Paulo flights

1501
00:55:44,610 --> 00:55:43,000
to the moon was that we never tried to

1502
00:55:46,170 --> 00:55:44,620
overlook anything it's in the same

1503
00:55:47,940 --> 00:55:46,180
matter of scientific honesty that I

1504
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:47,950
endorse the presentation alternative

1505
00:55:53,340 --> 00:55:49,090
theories for the origin of the universe

1506
00:55:54,540 --> 00:55:53,350
life man in the science classroom it

1507
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:54,550
would be an error to overlook the

1508
00:55:57,770 --> 00:55:55,810
possibility that the universe was

1509
00:56:00,360 --> 00:55:57,780
planned rather than happening by chance

1510
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:00,370
adapted from an lamont 21 great

1511
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:03,330
scientists who believe in the bible

1512
00:56:08,580 --> 00:56:05,890
career woman has about maybe 10 of these

1513
00:56:10,050 --> 00:56:08,590
out and he's been going since 2002 I

1514
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:10,060
remember the first one that I picked up

1515
00:56:13,710 --> 00:56:11,890
in 2002 when I first started teaching

1516
00:56:16,290 --> 00:56:13,720
English and then I started realizing

1517
00:56:18,660 --> 00:56:16,300
that creelman has a very interesting

1518
00:56:20,910 --> 00:56:18,670
take on what education really should

1519
00:56:23,850 --> 00:56:20,920
mean it's very subtle just little

1520
00:56:26,580 --> 00:56:23,860
banners down the side last pages at the

1521
00:56:29,220 --> 00:56:26,590
end who the publishers supporters are a

1522
00:56:32,460 --> 00:56:29,230
variety of Christian youth group camps

1523
00:56:35,100 --> 00:56:32,470
yeah I listened to sunshine FM now and

1524
00:56:36,390 --> 00:56:35,110
then they have nice music but I'm not

1525
00:56:37,530 --> 00:56:36,400
entirely certain if they really should

1526
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:37,540
be behind this sort of thing quite

1527
00:56:41,790 --> 00:56:39,370
frankly the thing that amuses me the

1528
00:56:43,860 --> 00:56:41,800
most is that the human biology textbook

1529
00:56:45,030 --> 00:56:43,870
has to teach them evolution and yet

1530
00:56:47,069 --> 00:56:45,040
there they are still with their little

1531
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:47,079
message at the front

1532
00:56:54,130 --> 00:56:50,450
this stuff's leak-proof I bought this

1533
00:56:55,450 --> 00:56:54,140
today this has been out since 2002 I was

1534
00:56:57,249 --> 00:56:55,460
wondering when anyone could have noticed

1535
00:56:59,410 --> 00:56:57,259
that I've been sort of noticing it being

1536
00:57:02,410 --> 00:56:59,420
on a variety of booklets from a variety

1537
00:57:05,559 --> 00:57:02,420
of schools yeah this is creelman his

1538
00:57:07,180 --> 00:57:05,569
officers let me see they're out there

1539
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:07,190
this is well known that's just two

1540
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:09,170
examples of pseudoscience the overlap

1541
00:57:13,269 --> 00:57:11,690
between atheism and skepticism and quite

1542
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:13,279
frankly as far as I'm concerned it's an

1543
00:57:17,589 --> 00:57:15,650
example of how education does deserve a

1544
00:57:19,539 --> 00:57:17,599
good keen eye because you never know

1545
00:57:21,579 --> 00:57:19,549
what's going to be up there probably my

1546
00:57:22,900 --> 00:57:21,589
best suggestion for anyone who may not

1547
00:57:24,549 --> 00:57:22,910
be a teacher and yet is still interest

1548
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:24,559
in the education and future is get

1549
00:57:29,559 --> 00:57:26,450
involved with your schools turn up to

1550
00:57:31,870 --> 00:57:29,569
parent teacher open days is it possible

1551
00:57:33,519 --> 00:57:31,880
for religious schools to have open

1552
00:57:35,890 --> 00:57:33,529
minded broad discussions on philosophy

1553
00:57:37,210 --> 00:57:35,900
and ethics which does require looking at

1554
00:57:39,549 --> 00:57:37,220
a variety of subjects which may not

1555
00:57:41,140 --> 00:57:39,559
agree with the score yes it is possible

1556
00:57:42,549 --> 00:57:41,150
for a school to have this it is possible

1557
00:57:44,319 --> 00:57:42,559
for teachers to be open-minded enough

1558
00:57:47,319 --> 00:57:44,329
even if they happen to have a particular

1559
00:57:50,140 --> 00:57:47,329
religious background maybe there aren't

1560
00:58:06,340 --> 00:57:50,150
as many as there should be better be

1561
00:58:10,730 --> 00:58:08,660
astronomy cast it takes a fact space

1562
00:58:12,470 --> 00:58:10,740
journey through the cosmos as it offers

1563
00:58:15,140 --> 00:58:12,480
listeners weekly discussions on

1564
00:58:18,050 --> 00:58:15,150
astronomical topics ranging from planets

1565
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:18,060
to cosmology hosted by Fraser Cain of

1566
00:58:21,350 --> 00:58:20,370
Universe Today and myself dr. Pamela

1567
00:58:24,020 --> 00:58:21,360
gave southern illinois university

1568
00:58:25,910 --> 00:58:24,030
edwardsville this show brings the

1569
00:58:28,340 --> 00:58:25,920
questions of an avid astronomy lover

1570
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:28,350
directly to an astronomer together

1571
00:58:31,970 --> 00:58:30,450
Fraser and I explore what is known and

1572
00:58:34,730 --> 00:58:31,980
being discovered about the universe

1573
00:58:36,830 --> 00:58:34,740
around us join us each week as we take a

1574
00:58:52,370 --> 00:58:36,840
fact space journey through the cosmos at

1575
00:58:57,450 --> 00:58:55,080
thanks for joining me for the skeptic

1576
00:59:00,900 --> 00:58:57,460
zone our full episode is back next week

1577
00:59:02,870 --> 00:59:00,910
with Stefan of course dr. Richie reports

1578
00:59:06,390 --> 00:59:02,880
a grain of salt in the think tank and

1579
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:06,400
before then why not go to our site at ww

1580
00:59:13,290 --> 00:59:10,930
skeptic zone TV scroll down and click on

1581
00:59:15,210 --> 00:59:13,300
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00:59:17,990 --> 00:59:15,220
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00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:18,000
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1584
00:59:26,340 --> 00:59:20,290
until next week this is Richard Saunders

1585
00:59:28,740 --> 00:59:26,350
signing off from Sydney Australia you've

1586
00:59:33,390 --> 00:59:28,750
been listening to the skeptic zone visit

1587
00:59:35,820 --> 00:59:33,400
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1588
00:59:38,770 --> 00:59:35,830
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